Gwen Stacy Appreciation 2018

[RD!]

I thought it was that JMS wanted up to wind the clock back to about ASM100, Quesada wanted everything to stay the same except they were never married and Gwen never died (I can't help but find this odd) and pretty much everyone else at Marvel had to convince him to let her stay dead.

[dddaaavvv]

Captain Stacy's death served as a warning to Peter that people could really die due to his double life. Its a warning he failed to heed for very long. Once Gwen calmed down and Peter and her were more stable again, thats when his actions led to her death. And between the two of them, its been hammered home to him that he needs to be really, really careful about his secret identity and protecting those he loves. Prior to that he was more concerned over protecting himself from discovery because of the shock it would cause his Aunt May and Gwen. Now suddenly he realized there was alot more at stake.

That is one seriously harsh warning! Basically, if that's the case, Peter is damned if he does damned if he doesn't. In order to keep his vow to his Uncle Ben he must continue being Spider-man but in so doing he endangers others in his life He might as well just kill himself!

[Qrx2]

Actually J Michael Straczynski had brought up the idea of resurrecting Gwen within the OMD storyline, but if I remember correctly Joe Quesada shot down the idea. IMHO it doesn't have be that great a storyline in which to bring her back. In an earlier posting I proposed another OMD type story but this time instead of a malevolent superbeing like Mephisto trying to be destructive you could have a benevolent superbeing bring back Gwen to right a terrible injustice, or at least restore balance to a world where Norman Osborn is brought back and essentially gets away with murder. Gwen's return would be kind of a karmic counterweight!

Yeah I saw the idea of them bringing back Gwen and Harry but in the end they only went with Harry and I am glad they did because I didn't read a lot of the stuff with Harry then but if I recall they pretty much brought him back and then didn't use him very well. Maybe that's just me though.

If I were going to bring back Gwen I would do something like someone giving Peter a chance to right his greatest wrong and pretty much get a do over at saving Gwen's life but warn him if he takes this path it will come with consequences and that they can not undo those consequence. It would be a way to de-age the character back to that point (which was part of the idea behind OMD to de-age Peter) but it would also destroy a heck of a lot of continuity which would make people mad and would be nearly imposable to do without resetting the Marvel Universe to that point which I don't think Marvel wants to do. I also would make those consequences painful like he saves Gwen and maybe even have her find out he is Spider-man but grow to resent him for her's father's death and maybe even drive MJ away from him for a while. I think there are some stories that could be told if they did that. With that said though, I don't think it would work because of the rest of the Marvel universe.

Again, I am not as opposed as some are to bringing Gwen back but I think to do Gwen justice it has to be done in a way that her death story is still meaningful other wise in a way you are just kinda spitting on the character and using her to make a quick buck for Marvel and that's very hard to do which is probably the main reason Marvel has never done it. Also, part of the reason Gwen was killed was the writers had figured out the fans like MJ more and they needed a way to switch the attention to Peter and MJ without making Peter out to look like a jerk to Gwen. It's no mistake that Mary Jane is the person there to comfort Peter about Gwen at the end of 122 and while they took a long time to completely get MJ and Peter together they were going down that road. MJ is still here and if anything more loved today than she was then. If you bring Gwen back while people would like Gwen and I am sure some would like her more than Mary Jane most would grow to resent her if she became a replacement for Mary Jane on the long haul and if you bring her back you are back to the original problem. Sooner or later Peter is going to have to pick between Gwen and Mary Jane and there is no way to do that without making Peter out to look like a jerk unless you kill one of them again which is just retelling a story you already told perfectly once.

[dddaaavvv]

I thought it was that JMS wanted up to wind the clock back to about ASM100, Quesada wanted everything to stay the same except they were never married and Gwen never died (I can't help but find this odd) and pretty much everyone else at Marvel had to convince him to let her stay dead.

I can't say I know all the details of this exchange. This is information that I gathered from various threads. I can't say I know the real story because it is all hearsay, but JMS would be a good choice to write "The Return of Gwen Stacy!"

[dddaaavvv]

Yeah I saw the idea of them bringing back Gwen and Harry but in the end they only went with Harry and I am glad they did because I didn't read a lot of the stuff with Harry then but if I recall they pretty much brought him back and then didn't use him very well. Maybe that's just me though.

If I were going to bring back Gwen I would do something like someone giving Peter a chance to right his greatest wrong and pretty much get a do over at saving Gwen's life but warn him if he takes this path it will come with consequences and that they can not undo those consequence. It would be a way to de-age the character back to that point (which was part of the idea behind OMD to de-age Peter) but it would also destroy a heck of a lot of continuity which would make people mad and would be nearly imposable to do without resetting the Marvel Universe to that point which I don't think Marvel wants to do. I also would make those consequences painful like he saves Gwen and maybe even have her find out he is Spider-man but grow to resent him for her's father's death and maybe even drive MJ away from him for a while. I think there are some stories that could be told if they did that. With that said though, I don't think it would work because of the rest of the Marvel universe.

Again, I am not as opposed as some are to bringing Gwen back but I think to do Gwen justice it has to be done in a way that her death story is still meaningful other wise in a way you are just kinda spitting on the character and using her to make a quick buck for Marvel and that's very hard to do which is probably the main reason Marvel has never done it. Also, part of the reason Gwen was killed was the writers had figured out the fans like MJ more and they needed a way to switch the attention to Peter and MJ without making Peter out to look like a jerk to Gwen. It's no mistake that Mary Jane is the person there to comfort Peter about Gwen at the end of 122 and while they took a long time to completely get MJ and Peter together they were going down that road. MJ is still here and if anything more loved today than she was then. If you bring Gwen back while people would like Gwen and I am sure some would like her more than Mary Jane most would grow to resent her if she became a replacement for Mary Jane on the long haul and if you bring her back you are back to the original problem. Sooner or later Peter is going to have to pick between Gwen and Mary Jane and there is no way to do that without making Peter out to look like a jerk unless you kill one of them again which is just retelling a story you already told perfectly once.

With respect to your statement about spitting on her character and using her to make a quick buck, from what I've seen Marvel has been doing that ever since #121. The Clone Saga, Sins Past, that horrific High Evolutionary story in that PPSSM annual, the unnecessary placing of her in various alternate universe storylines. From what I've seen they have been exploiting her supposedly sacred death almost from the start!

[Qrx2]

With respect to your statement about spitting on her character and using her to make a quick buck, from what I've seen Marvel has been doing that ever since #121. The Clone Saga, Sins Past, that horrific High Evolutionary story in that PPSSM annual, the unnecessary placing of her in various alternate universe storylines. From what I've seen they have been exploiting her supposedly sacred death almost from the start!

Yes and no. The clone saga I can grant you because you didn't know when it started it wasn't Gwen. The others you knew it wasn't her or it was an alternate version of her. If you bring back the real Gwen that's going to be very different.

[KurtW95]

I can't say I know all the details of this exchange. This is information that I gathered from various threads. I can't say I know the real story because it is all hearsay, but JMS would be a good choice to write "The Return of Gwen Stacy!"

I agree. He likes Gwen and wanted to bring her back. People constantly associate him with Sins Past, but he was most likely forced by the editorial. But the other writers who would do it well, as I said before,would be Waid or Yost. And we can't count on Slott bringing her back, as he has said that as long as he's writing Spidey, he won't bring her back. Though he has lied before, so you never know.

And to the people who see her death as a pivotal turning point to Peter Parker's life and comics in general, remember the concept of women in refrigerators, which is a common trope used to this day.

[dddaaavvv]

Yes and no. The clone saga I can grant you because you didn't know when it started it wasn't Gwen. The others you knew it wasn't her or it was an alternate version of her. If you bring back the real Gwen that's going to be very different.

The alternate Gwen's were unnecessary. Marvel could just as easily introduced a different character instead of having a "Gwen in name only." That was just exploitation of her memory.

Bringing back the real Gwen is not going to be very different. All it takes is a writer and an idea. Her character has already been established. She just needs to be given some dimension to make her fit into the more sophisticated modern day world.

[dddaaavvv]

I agree. He likes Gwen and wanted to bring her back. People constantly associate him with Sins Past, but he was most likely forced by the editorial. But the other writers who would do it well, as I said before,would be Waid or Yost. And we can't count on Slott bringing her back, as he has said that as long as he's writing Spidey, he won't bring her back. Though he has lied before, so you never know.

JMS has gotten a bad rap about Sins Past. As I suggested earlier, he may very well have used this to modernize her character so her peers wouldn't look like sluts in comparison.
As for Waid and Yost, that makes three potential writers with the talent to write a decent Gwen's return story.

And to the people who see her death as a pivotal turning point to Peter Parker's life and comics in general, remember the concept of women in refrigerators, which is a common trope used to this day.

Very good point, Kurt. Since Gwen, women in comics have been dropping like flies. It's no big deal any more.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

And to the people who see her death as a pivotal turning point to Peter Parker's life and comics in general, remember the concept of women in refrigerators, which is a common trope used to this day.

Which would be something to consider regarding new or established love interests.

Gwen's death happened before the murder and mistreatment of the protagonists love interests became a common trope in comics. Her death doesn't really have the same connotations that later deaths or depowerments have. It has the emotional weight because it was the first. The later ones were just done for shock value. That's why they were criticized, and rightly so.

[tabo61]

I read a reprint of her first appearance in the comics a few years ago. Didn't know she use to belittle Pete like Flash Thompson always did.

[dddaaavvv]

Just got finished reading "CBR News: The Fifty Greatest Spider-man Stories Ever Told". There was an unsurprisingly a large section with regards to "The Death of Gwen Stacy" Where it was revealed that Gerry Conway used this story to set up the ship that he wanted, Peter and MJ. Interesting!!

When #121 came out I was 11. Still naïve, still idealistic and still trusting of adults. So when the creative staff at Spiderman said that supposedly MJ was more popular than Gwen, I took their word for it . That supposedly a lot of readers thought she was boring, I took their word for it. That supposedly the readers were evenly split about the issue of her death, at 11 years old, I took their word for it. I couldn't imagine at that time that adults might lie to a bunch of teenage readers in order to cover their a$$es! Upon reflection, I realize now how many inconsistencies there have been in the story of writing the "Death of Gwen Stacy" and given the staff's influence what they might be capable of to manipulate the opinions of their young readers. As I have said before Gwen was only boring because she was written that way. Given this new insight about Conway, SHE WAS ONLY BORING BECAUSE CONWAY WROTE HER THAT WAY! Prior to his run she was just as interesting, vivacious, and attractive as any female character could be in the 60's (I emphasize this statement because ALL 60's female characters would be considered boring compared to MODERN female characters.)

What if things WEREN'T the way that we were told about the writing of Gwen's death? What if MJ was NOT as popular as the staff led us to believe? Maybe the backlash over Gwen's death was more significant than we were told? Maybe we've just been duped into believing the story that we were told by the creative staff? Maybe the creative staff realized they had a big problem and choreographed a diversion to cover up their mistake. Hell, this was the era of Watergate, it's not like it would be a new idea!!

Now don't get me wrong, Conway was a brilliant writer, but that doesn't make him a saint. He took a lot of risks and many succeeded, but maybe Gwen's death wasn't one of them. Maybe in the passionate, but selfish, pursuit of his ship, he and the rest of the staff underestimated the repercussions.

Given the new information that I have discovered over the last few years, The credibility and integrity of the creative staff of ASM in that era, is at least for ME, questionable. It's almost like a real life version of Sins Past!! We find out the creative staff had dirty little secrets of their own and they weren't the saints that we believed they were!! We find out Gwen's death was a huge mistake and Marvel has been covering it up for years. We find out that we have been duped by the same people we have turned to for entertainment.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I keep an open, but skeptical, mind. Having been in the Air Force and seeing the way they handle classified information. I am quite satisfied that Roswell was a NOT a UFO. After casual research I am satisfied that Oswald acted alone in the JFK assassination. Having said that, the Catholic sex abuse scandal and cover up was in fact real and Watergate (in the same timeframe as #121) was also real, so with respect to the writing of Gwen's death, who knows.....

[rckstr1253]

Well what if the Gwen clone that was in the superior spider-man/ kaine cross over is still alive. WOuld fans be okay with her having a relationship with a resurrected Ben Reilly, or even Kaine himself? I think that would give Gwen lovers what they want, as she will be with a "Peter" and MJ would be with THE "Peter". Everyone wins in my opinion.

[dddaaavvv]

Well what if the Gwen clone that was in the superior spider-man/ kaine cross over is still alive. WOuld fans be okay with her having a relationship with a resurrected Ben Reilly, or even Kaine himself? I think that would give Gwen lovers what they want, as she will be with a "Peter" and MJ would be with THE "Peter".

It would work for ME! When I first contemplated bringing back Gwen that was precisely the concept that I was thinking about. My desire was to see some version of Gwen and Peter being given the chance to live out the live they were supposed to live had she not died. At the time I contemplated this (after reading Spider-man: Blue), I had not read regularly in a long time. I thought that too much time had passed, Peter was with MJ and the idea of real Gwen coming back would be unrealistic (boy was I in for a rude awakening!)

I knew OF Ben, but didn't know he had died. My concept was Ben settles down in another city (with skyscrapers! Duh, webslinger! LOL) maybe Chicago, L.A., San Francisco. He bumps into clone Gwen and since he still has the imprinted memories of Warren he still feels the same attachment to Gwen as Peter has. She being a clone as well and going through a lot of the same experiences as Ben, would make them somewhat kindred spirits. The development of their love would be inevitable and they could end up living out what Peter and Gwen couldn't.

Then I find out

1. That Ben was dead, and (not knowing at the time just how outrageous Spidey's storylines had gotten) at the time I believed it would be a stretch to bring him back, but given all the things that have happened, I realize NOW that it wouldn't be that big a deal to bring him back, or a clone Gwen for that matter. (Hell, you could have something crazy like a Clone OMD!! )

2. That Norman Osborne was resurrected, which in my mind was a slap in the face of Gwen's memory and a travesty of justice. I thought, if Marvel was willing to be THAT audacious with their storylines, Bringing back REAL Gwen would be almost tame and justified!

Now having Kaine become more "human" the idea was revived. Kaine is down in Houston, he meets clone Gwen and they go through the same scenario. There is plenty of story potential as clone Gwen's kindness, idealism and spirit soften Kaine and make him want to be a better person. Maybe in the process she becomes a little more tempered and they end up meeting in the middle with regards to character evolution. Perhaps this type of scenario might have saved the Kaine comic. Who knows?

Everyone wins in my opinion.

That is a very good possibility!! It is a compromise I would be willing to make if, and only if, certain conditions were met.

1. It is well written. There has to be a sincere desire from the creative staff to pursue this storyline with enough passion and talent that readers like myself and KurtW95, Cameron Samurai, Tom91, eSoldier, red winter, usually, rckstr1253 and other likeminded people, would be satisfied with their romance being a suitable substitute for Gwen and Peter's.

2. She is kept alive and they do not break up , and her character is given substance, dimension and development. Don't tell me this is unrealistic. This is exactly what was done with Peter and MJ and they were together for 20+ years. This is to be a WELL WRITTEN long term storyline that would act as a window (albeit somewhat distorted window that would have aspects unique to these characters and surroundings) to what the relationship that Gwen and Peter had might have been like. Of course the storylines would have to be modernized. Of course there would have to be SOME dark, grim and cynical stories to maintain realism, as long as the OVERALL tone is positive, hopeful and optimistic.


One thing I have noticed is how dark and cynical comics have become, and maybe if the writers were to instill more lightness in the stories (not just humor, but optimistic storylines) instill more hopeful circumstances, have more happy endings, it might appeal to readers, or attract a different more loyal reader, a type reader that could have saved the Kaine comic, and other titles that failed due to their gloominess. I look at why Star Trek is so popular, even today to a similar demographic to comic fans. It instilled hope in the future. That the world WASN'T going to end in a nuclear war. That there would be a future where social problems could be either fixed or at least diminished. It is still a very attractive premise and maybe should be tried more today. Sure, have some pessimistic stories but contrast them with optimistic stories. It would amplify the shock value of the pessimistic stories and amplify the joy of the optimistic stories.

THAT is why #121 was so significant, because of the shock of something so unimaginably bad happening. Now comics are so dark it's like "another good guy dies, or goes bad, or a bad guy is resurrected oh, ok." It no longer has any shock value. Perhaps there could be a revolution in comics where unexpectedly GOOD things happen more often. Restore hope to the comic universe, and maybe attract a new type of reader to the industry.

THIS by the way is the THIRD reason why I want Gwen to come back. To possibly restore some optimism and hope to the comic world, and in a small way to the world in general. Gwen's death did affect me in this way. It left me with a little less hope, faith and optimism in the world.

[dddaaavvv]

Thanks. It was a harrowing experiance, but so long as you come out of it with a sharper mind and some strong ideas about what to do next, you can overcome any hurdle.

Keep the faith my little Malibu Stacies. Everything comes back 'round eventually. If Bucky can come back, anything's up for sale.

Hell I want them to be really audacious and bring back Uncle Ben just to see if Peter remains Spidey in light of that.

I meant to comment on this post earlier but got sidetracked! I can relate to your experience with OMD. #121 didn't hit me as hard as OMD did you, but it did deeply affect me, thus my passion for bringing back Gwen.

Bucky is another great example of why bringing back Gwen is not so sacrilegious. It's also a great example of what a good writer can do with a story idea. Bucky's was a very complex tale that was given the right level of technical feasibility that bringing him back after such an absurd period of time could still be made acceptable. THIS would be the style of story that I would like for Gwen and clearly it is not an impossible objective.

Although I feel that Ben should not be brought back, if he WAS, I believe he would encourage Pete to continue with his noble crusade and be the best person he can be. That is based on all the fatherly advice that Ben has given Peter in one form or another over the years.

I beleive that's what prompted Stan to order Gwen's return ASAP, and thus we got the first clone saga as a way of holding people's hands through the greiving process.

This is the first I've heard of this. I didn't know Stan had that much involvement in the Clone Saga, or Gwen's clone. Then again this might be some of Stan's B.S! As I suggested in an earlier post, after some of the inconsistencies to what Stan and the others have said over the years regarding Gwen's death, there MIGHT be more to this story! Maybe this was an attempt to appease the readers (which given this new information might have been a significant majority) who protested Gwen's death....