Gwen Stacy Appreciation 2018

[dddaaavvv]

Cagney and Stacy!

(ok, you might wanna retcon it so Cagney is a never heard middle name for Jean, but...oh just shoot me for that one...)

Just discovered that Gwen's middle name is Maxine!!! Cagney and Stacy isn't sounding so bad now... (Cagney and Maxine... Sounds like a duet on the Lawrence Welk Show!! An-a one-a, an-a two-a... )

[dddaaavvv]

This is how I think things transpired with the killing of Gwen. Around ASM #88 it was clear that Gwen and Peter were getting to close too soon. Something had to be done to disrupt their relationship to slow things down ( in today's world, Sins Past would have been an ideal scenario! But in the innocence of 1970, this was not an option!)

Killing Capt. Stacy and blaming Spiderman for it was a smart idea. It drove a wedge between Peter and Gwen and had SOME potential to disrupt the relationship, but apparently not enough (but seeing how Capt. Stacy's death sent comic sales through the roof was not lost on ANYONE!)

The creative staff realized something more drastic had to be done to disrupt Peter and Gwen's relationship, so they sent her off to England. They could leave her there for a few years, let Spidey grow up and mature to the point where marriage was more workable and bring her back to a huge fanfare by the readers. After about a year of adjustment where there would be craploads of drama about Peter and MJ and Felicia and who ever else, they realize they were soul mates, get engaged and about a year after that they get married, right around the time Peter and MJ got married.

The problem is (this is speculation on my part, but based on the information I have gathered, very likely) The majority of readers, despite what we have been led to believe, LOVED Gwen and were outraged by her being sent away. I imagine the were piles of hate mail coming into Marvel regarding this and so in issue #98 they brought her back to appease the readers. Now, due to pressure from the fans, the creative staff was painted into corner. How were they going to handle this? They were almost obligated to have Gwen and Peter get married prematurely.

Remembering the effect Capt. Stacy's death had on sales, I believe it was in this timeframe the wheels were set in motion to kill off Gwen. First thing they did was to diminish her exposure in the comic, essentially MAKING her boring and less relevant hoping to diminish the emotional attachment that readers had with her, then they planned to have her death be at least as shocking as Capt. Stacy's by having her die on the last page, just like they did with him, thus having huge sales (which of course would bring STAN in as an accomplice to their little plan.)

While they were there, The Green Goblin's amnesia/ knowing Peter's secret identity bit was getting tedious and something HAD to be done about it. So why not kill two birds with one stone?

At this point, despite certain criticisms that I have about his integrity, I will give Gerry Conway huge props for the details he put in the story. Giving Peter a cold so that he wasn't in top shape. Here was a factor totally beyond his control that prevented him from saving the day, so he didn't break his oath to Uncle Ben. Also to not have the Goblin kill Gwen directly, gave Peter a moral dilemma. Had Goblin murdered Gwen, Peter murdering Goblin would have been justified and that would have been an irresponsible message to sent out to impressionable teenage boys, the core demographic.

I suspect that MJ was initially used in the epilogue somewhat as a rebound for Peter to deflect attention away from Gwen's death,as well as planting the seeds for Conway's ship Peter and MJ.

There was STILL a huge amount of outrage over the death of Gwen, more than I feel we have been led to believe. At this point the staff were using the tactics that I had talked about in an earlier post to cover their a$$es and to manipulate the readers minds, but these only offered limited success and after a couple of years they finally brought in a Gwen clone to hopefully appease the more persistent Gwen fans.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

This is how I think things transpired with the killing of Gwen. Around ASM #88 it was clear that Gwen and Peter were getting to close too soon. Something had to be done to disrupt their relationship to slow things down ( in today's world, Sins Past would have been an ideal scenario! But in the innocence of 1970, this was not an option!)

Killing Capt. Stacy and blaming Spiderman for it was a smart idea. It drove a wedge between Peter and Gwen and had SOME potential to disrupt the relationship, but apparently not enough (but seeing how Capt. Stacy's death sent comic sales through the roof was not lost on ANYONE!)

The creative staff realized something more drastic had to be done to disrupt Peter and Gwen's relationship, so they sent her off to England. They could leave her there for a few years, let Spidey grow up and mature to the point where marriage was more workable and bring her back to a huge fanfare by the readers. After about a year of adjustment where there would be craploads of drama about Peter and MJ and Felicia and who ever else, they realize they were soul mates, get engaged and about a year after that they get married, right around the time Peter and MJ got married.

The problem is (this is speculation on my part, but based on the information I have gathered, very likely) The majority of readers, despite what we have been led to believe, LOVED Gwen and were outraged by her being sent away. I imagine the were piles of hate mail coming into Marvel regarding this and so in issue #98 they brought her back to appease the readers. Now, due to pressure from the fans, the creative staff was painted into corner. How were they going to handle this? They were almost obligated to have Gwen and Peter get married prematurely.

Remembering the effect Capt. Stacy's death had on sales, I believe it was in this timeframe the wheels were set in motion to kill off Gwen. First thing they did was to diminish her exposure in the comic, essentially MAKING her boring and less relevant hoping to diminish the emotional attachment that readers had with her, then they planned to have her death be at least as shocking as Capt. Stacy's by having her die on the last page, just like they did with him, thus having huge sales (which of course would bring STAN in as an accomplice to their little plan.)

While they were there, The Green Goblin's amnesia/ knowing Peter's secret identity bit was getting tedious and something HAD to be done about it. So why not kill two birds with one stone?

At this point, despite certain criticisms that I have about his integrity, I will give Gerry Conway huge props for the details he put in the story. Giving Peter a cold so that he wasn't in top shape. Here was a factor totally beyond his control that prevented him from saving the day, so he didn't break his oath to Uncle Ben. Also to not have the Goblin kill Gwen directly, gave Peter a moral dilemma. Had Goblin murdered Gwen, Peter murdering Goblin would have been justified and that would have been an irresponsible message to sent out to impressionable teenage boys, the core demographic.

I suspect that MJ was initially used in the epilogue somewhat as a rebound for Peter to deflect attention away from Gwen's death,as well as planting the seeds for Conway's ship Peter and MJ.

There was STILL a huge amount of outrage over the death of Gwen, more than I feel we have been led to believe. At this point the staff were using the tactics that I had talked about in an earlier post to cover their a$$es and to manipulate the readers minds, but these only offered limited success and after a couple of years they finally brought in a Gwen clone to hopefully appease the more persistent Gwen fans.

Or it could have happened the way everyone said it happened- the creators were looking to shake up the book, thought about killing a character, talked about killing May but eventually sided with Gwen since the creators didn't know what more to do with her.

Yes, the death of Gwen got a lot of hate mail. But I don't think there was any larger conspiracy other than just trying to shake things up.

[Aruran.]

Yes, the death of Gwen got a lot of hate mail. But I don't think there was any larger conspiracy other than just trying to shake things up.

I think the only conspiracy was whether Gwen died from her neck getting snapped or not. Conway didn't intend for it to cause of the webbing, but the you add in the snap effect and we really don't know for sure if it was intentional at that time.

[The Amazing Spider-Man]

I actually love Gwen, to an extent, though. I have Spider-Man Blue to blame for that.

Ben's death taught him what happens when he doesn't act, her death, though, taught him what happens as a consequence of acting.

It is my opinion that Gwen's death was what kept Peter as Spider-Man. Ben's death created Spider-Man, Gwen's death solidified him as a hero.

The Goblin killing her (or spider-man's web strand, depending on your opinion) tested his morals, it tested him emotionally, but in the end he couldn't kill the Goblin, and the Goblin ended up killing himself with the glider.

Which, of course is now meaningless, because the Goblin's still alive.

I think the only conspiracy was whether Gwen died from her neck getting snapped or not. Conway didn't intend for it to cause of the webbing, but the you add in the snap effect and we really don't know for sure if it was intentional at that time.

It's possible for bones to break, even if the person is dead.

I think the web killed her. Whiplash, if you will.

[dddaaavvv]

Or it could have happened the way everyone said it happened- the creators were looking to shake up the book, thought about killing a character, talked about killing May but eventually sided with Gwen since the creators didn't know what more to do with her.

Yes, the death of Gwen got a lot of hate mail. But I don't think there was any larger conspiracy other than just trying to shake things up.

I don't like the use of the word "creators" when referring the these guys. Although it's a shorter description, it implies a sort of god-like status to them and implies infallibility, which can be considered the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority." I'm not saying EVERYTHING that I have suggested is correct, I'm saying that the "author's" (THERE'S a short description that works for me!) words should not be taken as gospel. Given the inconsistencies in their stories over the years, there is room for doubt.

Having said that, I am in full agreement with you , that the authors, at the very least, had DIFFICULTY knowing what to do with her. Killing her, killing Goblin and shaking up the book essentially killed THREE birds with one stone. NO pun intended. It also sold craploads of comics!!

Of course they got a lot of hate mail after #121, but I question it conveniently being an even split. The problem with Gwen was solved back in #93. Why did they bring her back in #98? My hypothesis is that it was a LOT more hate mail and a lot more passion than they expected.

Anyway, without conclusive proof either way, again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[dddaaavvv]

I think the only conspiracy was whether Gwen died from her neck getting snapped or not. Conway didn't intend for it to cause of the webbing, but the you add in the snap effect and we really don't know for sure if it was intentional at that time.

Like I said, I give props to Conway for creating that ambiguity. It made it a grey area rather than putting all the blame on Goblin for Gwen's death. IMHO, however, Goblin put Gwen's life in imminent danger. He intended for her to die so IMHO he is responsible. Any action Spidey took, successful or not, was intended to save her. But we'll just go around and around on this, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[juan678]

Art Fred Benes; Color tony058

[Scott Taylor]

Well...um...I'll be in my bunk.

[dddaaavvv]

Well...um...I'll be in my bunk.

LOL

Gwendolyne_Stacy_(Earth-616)_0001.jpg

This is my favorite picture. Sadly the resolution is not great.

It would be nice if someone with artistic talent could embellish this picture the way it deserves!

Anybody know who drew it? I'm guessing John Buscema.

This is also the reason I prefer the older artists over many, not all, of the newer artists. They drew the characters with more realism and life like proportions. to me, in many cases but not all, the lack of realism detracted from the impact of the story. Granted, even the older artists exaggerated the characters' proportions and features, for dramatic effect to emphasize emotions and for aesthetics, but the still kept the basic proportions lifelike. I will freely admit that no real women could have the EXACT proportions that Gwen does in this picture, her legs are too unrealistically long and her waist is unrealistically slim, but not outrageously. The thing that I like about it is her face. Her features are proportionate and to me...Beautiful! There's a confidence and strength that Buscema would put in his characters that made them this way. Romita Sr. would do a good job too and with his romance comic background was great for emotional expression, but it also gave the characters a certain degree of insecurity which made them just slightly less attractive, but more sympathetic. In #72 (there were other issues where Buscema contributed to the artwork but that one sticks in my mind) you could definitely see a difference from when Romita was working alone. For this reason Buscema's work was better for drawing superheroes but for the non-super characters or the heroes in civilian guise, dealing with the emotion and drama of ordinary life, Romita was better suited, even though Buscema did make them look more attractive.

[dddaaavvv]

Gwen is/was beautiful, intelligent, passionate and no shrinking violet (least before Conway) so she was not boring and had a lot of potential IF the writers wanted to work with that. Conway was very creative and wrote a lot of good stories, but MJ/Peter was his ship, so Gwen didn't stand a chance.

[eSoldier]

This is how I think things transpired with the killing of Gwen. Around ASM #88 it was clear that Gwen and Peter were getting to close too soon. Something had to be done to disrupt their relationship to slow things down ( in today's world, Sins Past would have been an ideal scenario! But in the innocence of 1970, this was not an option!)...

Well written. This is pretty much how I remember it from the interviews and history I've read and seen. I think Sins Past was a very intriguing story and could be (emphases on "could be") a good reason to bring Gwen back. A good writer could take advantage of the adjusted continuity and write some pretty entertaining stories.

[dddaaavvv]

Well written. This is pretty much how I remember it from the interviews and history I've read and seen. I think Sins Past was a very intriguing story and could be (emphases on "could be") a good reason to bring Gwen back. A good writer could take advantage of the adjusted continuity and write some pretty entertaining stories.

This why I say bringing Gwen back would not be some kind of dead end like so many naysayers claim. There is so much material to be worked with that there would be enough intriguing stories to last for years. All it would take is a/some good writer(s). Hell, I'm not even a writer and I could give them dozens of basic outlines to work with. I could give them an outline, then they put in all the details and dramatic stuff that would make it a great story.

P.S. love your signature! That's kinda my philosophy as well!

[KurtW95]

Well written. This is pretty much how I remember it from the interviews and history I've read and seen. I think Sins Past was a very intriguing story and could be (emphases on "could be") a good reason to bring Gwen back. A good writer could take advantage of the adjusted continuity and write some pretty entertaining stories.

I'm all for bringing Gwen back, but Sins Past just needs to go.

[KurtW95]

Gwen is/was beautiful, intelligent, passionate and no shrinking violet (least before Conway) so she was not boring and had a lot of potential IF the writers wanted to work with that. Conway was very creative and wrote a lot of good stories, but MJ/Peter was his ship, so Gwen didn't stand a chance.

Agreed. Conway tossed her so Peter could get with his fantasy woman. And he purposely wrote her a certain way so that it would seem like she was not a large presence. He did create good characters, like Tombstone, Ben Reilly, Jason Todd, and Killer Croc. But most of those characters become got their favorable characterization from later writers. And when he created them, he had more experience and creative ability. Killing a character off is taking the easy way out when you don't have any ideas.