Gwen Stacy Appreciation 2018

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Agreed. Conway tossed her so Peter could get with his fantasy woman. And he purposely wrote her a certain way so that it would seem like she was not a large presence. He did create good characters, like Tombstone, Ben Reilly, Jason Todd, and Killer Croc. But most of those characters become got their favorable characterization from later writers. And when he created them, he had more experience and creative ability. Killing a character off is taking the easy way out when you don't have any ideas.

Actually, given the amount of stories that came from killing off Gwen- a character that wasn't really that popular with the readers, and whose relationship with Peter Parker had reached a dead end- actually gave the series a shot in the arm. Peter's relationship with MJ was hardly one of ideal fantasy, as MJ's growing realization and evolution as a character took her away from the sexual fantasy she had been before and into a fully fleshed out character. She may have been a fantasy before, but she wasn't after Conway grew her into a more well developed character. The death of Gwen led to the death of Norman, as the editors (Who also agreed to the death of Gwen, and who disagreed with Conway's first suggestion of Aunt May) felt that Norman needed to be punished for Gwen's death. This led to Harry becoming the Green Goblin, which saw him eventually becoming a more strong willed character who made his own destiny. It also led to the creation of the Hobgoblin, one of the most popular characters in the Spider-Man mythos.

The easy way out would have been to just do what was done with Betty- move her off the stage and into limbo. Killing Gwen, in a day and age when comics still had their innocence, was the real risky move.

[KurtW95]

Actually, given the amount of stories that came from killing off Gwen- a character that wasn't really that popular with the readers, and whose relationship with Peter Parker had reached a dead end- actually gave the series a shot in the arm. Peter's relationship with MJ was hardly one of ideal fantasy, as MJ's growing realization and evolution as a character took her away from the sexual fantasy she had been before and into a fully fleshed out character. She may have been a fantasy before, but she wasn't after Conway grew her into a more well developed character. The death of Gwen led to the death of Norman, as the editors (Who also agreed to the death of Gwen, and who disagreed with Conway's first suggestion of Aunt May) felt that Norman needed to be punished for Gwen's death. This led to Harry becoming the Green Goblin, which saw him eventually becoming a more strong willed character who made his own destiny. It also led to the creation of the Hobgoblin, one of the most popular characters in the Spider-Man mythos.

The easy way out would have been to just do what was done with Betty- move her off the stage and into limbo. Killing Gwen, in a day and age when comics still had their innocence, was the real risky move.

I meant Conway's fantasy woman. Not Peter's. Peter and Mary Jane were so different that the writers had to change both characters significantly to make them semi-compatible. And Mary Jane was already a fully fleshed out character before Conway, just not the one that fits your and Conway's narrative. And killing any character, be it Aunt May as you mentioned was Conway's original target, reeks of desperation and lack of original ideas and laziness.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

I meant Conway's fantasy woman. Not Peter's.

That's pretty damning accusation. Do you have any proof to back it up?

Peter and Mary Jane were so different that the writers had to change both characters significantly to make them semi-compatible. And Mary Jane was already a fully fleshed out character before Conway, just not the one that fits your and Conway's narrative.

There is a difference between character growth and character change. MJ didn't immediately become a different person. She grew closer to Peter after Gwen's death, and struggled with the notion of truly becoming close to someone. And even after they got together, MJ was still flighty and flirty, even once flirting with Flash after she was upset that Peter stood her up.

I'm sorry, but this isn't this massive character derailment that it is made out to be. It's not a narrative. It's just the fact of what went on in the stories. It wasn't Conway killing Gwen off for his preferred ship. His original choice was turned down. If it was as you say, he wouldn't have chosen May first for who should die.

And killing any character, be it Aunt May as you mentioned was Conway's original target, reeks of desperation and lack of original ideas and laziness.

Well, they were desperate. Sales on the book were not good. They needed something to get people's attention. And killing off a character is a good way to shake up a book.

Plus, at the time, it wasn't lazy. Nowadays, killing off a character is something that has become pase. But back then? It was unheard of. The lazy thing would be to just do the same thing as before. The risky thing was to kill off a character everyone thought was safe, because something like that? That never happened before.

[Donuts]

Is Kurt arguing with someone again? Oh dear. Something never change do they?
Well, I will say this Gwen at times was a great character. However, like most characters in Peter Parker/Spider-Man's world, she is flawed.

[The Amazing Spider-Man]

As much as I love Gwen as a character, (curse you Spider-Man: Blue) I don't know where they could have gone with her story.

She blamed Spider-Man for the death of her father, Peter hadn't even revealed his identity to her, so where was her story going?

Once Peter had revealed his identity, she would have broken up with him.

Also, I'm disregarding that "What If?" Comic.

She was a good character, and in my opinion, she was tailor made to have a traumatic and fatal ending that would haunt Peter.

[KurtW95]

There is a difference between character growth and character change. MJ didn't immediately become a different person. She grew closer to Peter after Gwen's death, and struggled with the notion of truly becoming close to someone. And even after they got together, MJ was still flighty and flirty, even once flirting with Flash after she was upset that Peter stood her up.

Spin it how you will. Both characters were changed in order for a relationship to happen.

I'm sorry, but this isn't this massive character derailment that it is made out to be. It's not a narrative. It's just the fact of what went on in the stories. It wasn't Conway killing Gwen off for his preferred ship. His original choice was turned down. If it was as you say, he wouldn't have chosen May first for who should die.

Conway's choice was Gwen. Romita wanted to kill somebody and was planning on offing Aunt May, (which still would have been a bad idea). But Conway persuaded them to get rid of Gwen instead as he thought she was boring and Stan Lee's attempt to try and incorporate his own wife into the comic. And 19-year-old Conway preferred the red headed bad girl. (I will post sources if you don't believe me.)

Plus, at the time, it wasn't lazy. Nowadays, killing off a character is something that has become pase. But back then? It was unheard of. The lazy thing would be to just do the same thing as before. The risky thing was to kill off a character everyone thought was safe, because something like that? That never happened before.

It is lazy because a good writer and think of a creative way to interest a reader.

[KurtW95]

Is Kurt arguing with someone again? Oh dear. Something never change do they?
Well, I will say this Gwen at times was a great character. However, like most characters in Peter Parker/Spider-Man's world, she is flawed.

I stayed out of a lot of it, so I deserve some points right? And yes, she is; which completely disproves her detractors' argument that she is too perfect to exist.

[dddaaavvv]

I'm all for bringing Gwen back, but Sins Past just needs to go.

Removing Sins Past would be my preference too, but if I got all the other conditions I want, I could live with it.

By the way thanks for jumping back in Kurt! I was getting tired!

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Spin it how you will. Both characters were changed in order for a relationship to happen.

Right. Gwen went from being a mean spirited shrew who was upset with Peter for not falling all over her, to essentially a clone of MJ, to someone who cried at a drop of a hat.

So where was a lot of change in Gwen's character as well.

Conway's choice was Gwen. Romita wanted to kill somebody and was planning on offing Aunt May, (which still would have been a bad idea). But Conway persuaded them to get rid of Gwen instead as he thought she was boring and Stan Lee's attempt to try and incorporate his own wife into the comic. And 19-year-old Conway preferred the red headed bad girl. (I will post sources if you don't believe me.)

That's far and away from the claim that MJ was Conway's fantasy girl and killed off Gwen solely because of that.

It is lazy because a good writer and think of a creative way to interest a reader.

And at the time, killing of the protagonists love interest was a creative way to interest a reader, since it had never been done before.

[dddaaavvv]

As much as I love Gwen as a character, (curse you Spider-Man: Blue) I don't know where they could have gone with her story.

Yeah, Spider-man: Blue was very good. It's what inspired me to want to bring Gwen back

She blamed Spider-Man for the death of her father, Peter hadn't even revealed his identity to her, so where was her story going?

That is where a willing writer could come in. Conway wanted her dead to make room for MJ. Had someone else been the writer and liked Gwen it could be an entirely different story.

Once Peter had revealed his identity, she would have broken up with him.

Not necessarily. Peter has Sins Past to use as ammo against her! He just has to throw out the old "judge not lest ye be judged!" I know, you're talking about way back when BEFORE Sins Past. Well, if she heard his side of the story, with the right presentation, she COULD forgive him, after a while at least. In fact, that would have made a good alternate story. Instead of dying, she breaks up with him but after time she realizes that it was beyond his control and she forgives him, but that is only a hypothetical and it's too late to go back and try it.

Also, I'm disregarding that "What If?" Comic.

Well, that's your choice. I use it for speculation on Peter and Gwen's behavior if she came back.

She was a good character, and in my opinion, she was tailor made to have a traumatic and fatal ending that would haunt Peter.

I agree with you about her character, but Spider-man: Blue hit me in a different way. At least we both agree on liking Spider-man: Blue!

[dddaaavvv]

I stayed out of a lot of it, so I deserve some points right? And yes, she is; which completely disproves her detractors' argument that she is too perfect to exist.

This is where Sins Past serves a purpose. It brings Gwen's character back down to Earth, but it doesn't change her qualities or the good in her character. She was willing to fight Norman passionately to protect her kids, which is indicative of the courage and spirit she had.

[KurtW95]

This is where Sins Past serves a purpose. It brings Gwen's character back down to Earth, but it doesn't change her qualities or the good in her character. She was willing to fight Norman passionately to protect her kids, which is indicative of the courage and spirit she had.

Sorry, I'd have to disagree with you there. It does nix most of her good qualities. It was completely out of character, and that's why I don't accept it as canon. I'm just waiting for it to be retconned altogether on panel.

[KurtW95]

Right. Gwen went from being a mean spirited shrew who was upset with Peter for not falling all over her, to essentially a clone of MJ, to someone who cried at a drop of a hat.

So where was a lot of change in Gwen's character as well.

This is an APPRECIATION thread. For people who APPRECIATE the character. Not condemn her. I don't think anybody who appreciates her would call her a "mean spirited shrew." Do I go over to the MJ appreciation thread to call her flirty little strumpet? Or even the "cast MJ" thread you made?

[dddaaavvv]

Sorry, I'd have to disagree with you there. It does nix most of her good qualities. It was completely out of character, and that's why I don't accept it as canon. I'm just waiting for it to be retconned altogether on panel.

I don't see her as losing qualities. To me she was vulnerable and made a mistake in a moment of weakness. I still see her as a brave, passionate, compassionate, loyal person with great integrity. I'm curious about what qualities you consider affected by Sins Past. Is it a matter of morality?

[dddaaavvv]

This is an APPRECIATION thread. For people who APPRECIATE the character. Not condemn her. I don't think anybody who appreciates her would call her a "mean spirited shrew." Do I go over to the MJ appreciation thread to call her flirty little strumpet? Or even the "cast MJ" thread you made?

Well said! There are several "Appreciation" threads to go to and post positive remarks, and there's always the option of starting another thread for one's own particular preference. Negativity is unwarranted on an "Appreciation" thread.