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  1. #31
    Always Rakzo
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    I think some people are misunderstanding here, the problem is not that King is ignoring Kyle's time as a White Lantern since the beginning I figured that Kyle sees himself as a Green Lantern in his mind (which doesn't make much sense since he has gotten so many and more important identities over the years that being a GL shouldn't be the most important to him logically speaking but whatever).

    The problem is that most of his character development is apparently being ignored. Kyle is not someone so insecure that starts doubting his whole value as a hero and as a person just because of making a mistake (at least not at this point). Hell, during Justin Jordan's run on New Guardians he made Kyle face several challenges that could be considered way more dangerous and complex than this one and he always found a solution instead of simply crying in a corner. Kyle is an artist, let him be creative.

    Another thing that is kind of a nitpick, Kyle is a romantic not a cheater. He's currently in a relationship with Carol so him getting on with the princess is also out of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by joybeans View Post
    Well, the same thing happened after Johns's run ended. Atrocitus went to being a straight-up villain (and Red Lanterns ended up being much better for it). Carol suddenly decides to break up with Hal for reasons after she spent time scouring the galaxy for him. And on the Batman forums, pretty much everyone wants to retcon Tim Drake's entire New 52 history. It's the downside of trying to maintain continuity, when one writer writes into a hole that leaves the next writer very little flexibility to progress. The transitions from Nightwing to Grayson, from Simone's Batgirl to Burnside Batgirl, and from Nocenti's Catwoman to mob boss Selina were fairly disconnected as well. Every Green Arrow writer after Flashpoint has also disregarded what came before, and Lemire is often congratulated for giving Nocenti's run the middle finger.
    That's not really true though. Lemire acknowledged EVERYTHING that happened before his run, even Nocenti's run. There were several mentions during his work that Ollie was too busy traveling around the world (which happened during Nocenti's era) and there's also the time when the leader of the Shield Clan, Kodyak, say that he was called to fight in the Outsiders War just when he was in Amsterdam having a thing with some Danish twins, that's a direct reference to Nocenti's first story about the Skylark triplets and how one of the sisters died at the end.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    The problem is that most of his character development is apparently being ignored. Kyle is not someone so insecure that starts doubting his whole value as a hero and as a person just because of making a mistake (at least not at this point). Hell, during Justin Jordan's run on New Guardians he made Kyle face several challenges that could be considered way more dangerous and complex than this one and he always found a solution instead of simply crying in a corner. Kyle is an artist, let him be creative.
    Oh, I don't know about that - Justin Jordan turned Kyle into a fixer of unfixable problems, and it's easy to see "Omega Men" as the story of him coming off that into an unfixable problem that's actually unfixable. Or, at least, will take longer and doesn't respond to the kind of moral absolutism Jordan gave Kyle.


    It's true that in "New Guardians" Kyle faced problems bigger than this - but he also always won. I can see the massacre in issue #2 weighing more heavily on him after his White Lantern time than before. He's just spent a bunch of time as a benevolent god fixing exactly these kind of issues - only now he can't.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    Oh, I don't know about that - Justin Jordan turned Kyle into a fixer of unfixable problems, and it's easy to see "Omega Men" as the story of him coming off that into an unfixable problem that's actually unfixable. Or, at least, will take longer and doesn't respond to the kind of moral absolutism Jordan gave Kyle.


    It's true that in "New Guardians" Kyle faced problems bigger than this - but he also always won. I can see the massacre in issue #2 weighing more heavily on him after his White Lantern time than before. He's just spent a bunch of time as a benevolent god fixing exactly these kind of issues - only now he can't.
    I don't really think that's the case here either.

    During Jordan's run Kyle also failed to save the people from a parallel timeline and failed at rescuing many people from Saysoran's world. Making this, particularly THIS event the one that breaks him is less of something in-character and more of something contrived by the story.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    I don't really think that's the case here either.

    During Jordan's run Kyle also failed to save the people from a parallel timeline and failed at rescuing many people from Saysoran's world. Making this, particularly THIS event the one that breaks him is less of something in-character and more of something contrived by the story.
    But those were pretty "sci fi" events - whereas here, it was a more brutal and cruel and pointless, whilst also being exactly the kind of thing he'd usually swoop in and solve pretty easily. He was prevented from Doing His Best To Save Them, which was always a Kyle thing.


    Mind you, I'm trying to rationalise the change in characterisation rather than claim it isn't there - among other things, I agree with you that the Kyle we've been following up until this point is unlikely to be such a "loyalist" as to think of himself first and foremost as 'Green Lantern'. Or, rather, as a member of the corps. He's been rebooted, it's just that his came a couple of years later than other people's....

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    But those were pretty "sci fi" events - whereas here, it was a more brutal and cruel and pointless, whilst also being exactly the kind of thing he'd usually swoop in and solve pretty easily. He was prevented from Doing His Best To Save Them, which was always a Kyle thing.


    Mind you, I'm trying to rationalise the change in characterisation rather than claim it isn't there - among other things, I agree with you that the Kyle we've been following up until this point is unlikely to be such a "loyalist" as to think of himself first and foremost as 'Green Lantern'. Or, rather, as a member of the corps. He's been rebooted, it's just that his came a couple of years later than other people's....
    Yeah, that's the thing. Characters almost always undergo a shift in characterization under a new writer, because that's the nature of comics. Kyle's New Guardians story had an ending. Guy Gardner had an ending for his Red Lanterns arc, and now he's a very different character in Lost Army. Carol Ferris got a "reboot" when Johns's run ended, and she got passed over to Venditti and Jordan.

  6. #36
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    "Shift" is not the same as "regression" people.

  7. #37
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    Is it really regression if it's for the better, though?

    I read OM #4 as less "he's still extremely insecure" and more that that insecurity has been lessened by his time as GL but it's still something that lingers and keeps driving him. Getting rid of that doubt and insecurity feels more like a characterization dead end than development. Without them he doesn't have as much to set him apart from the other GLs or give him a unique niche, and just saying he's different because he's stronger and better than everybody else doesn't really help with that. I wasn't a fan of New Guardians in general and I really don't think it did Kyle any favors in terms of characterization though so I am biased, I think the Kyle King is present in Omega Men is more interesting characterization than Kyle's had in ages.

    As for Kyle giving into Kalista, he's lonely, confused, injured, feeling abandoned, and Kalista went in there with the express intent of manipulating him and connecting with him so it makes sense to me that he'd go for her. In the previous issue actually he referred to Carol as "somebody I used to know before all this" and that actually made me wonder if they hadn't broken up off panel before Omega Men started because even if he's deliberately being vague that doesn't sound like something you'd say about somebody you're dating.

    Also I absolutely hate Kyle/Carol so anything that gets rid of that is completely fine by me.

  8. #38
    Moderator joybeans's Avatar
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    The other characters I mentioned regressed far more than Kyle did

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by vartox View Post
    Is it really regression if it's for the better, though?

    I read OM #4 as less "he's still extremely insecure" and more that that insecurity has been lessened by his time as GL but it's still something that lingers and keeps driving him. Getting rid of that doubt and insecurity feels more like a characterization dead end than development. Without them he doesn't have as much to set him apart from the other GLs or give him a unique niche, and just saying he's different because he's stronger and better than everybody else doesn't really help with that. I wasn't a fan of New Guardians in general and I really don't think it did Kyle any favors in terms of characterization though so I am biased, I think the Kyle King is present in Omega Men is more interesting characterization than Kyle's had in ages.
    Well, we all have our own biases but it is indeed "regression" if a character has already surpassed all those problems before and managed to get confidence on his own.

    Kyle wasn't perfect, he was just self-assured.

    As for Kyle giving into Kalista, he's lonely, confused, injured, feeling abandoned, and Kalista went in there with the express intent of manipulating him and connecting with him so it makes sense to me that he'd go for her. In the previous issue actually he referred to Carol as "somebody I used to know before all this" and that actually made me wonder if they hadn't broken up off panel before Omega Men started because even if he's deliberately being vague that doesn't sound like something you'd say about somebody you're dating.
    The problem is that, once again, it speaks more about her character than his. Kyle is just a tool for showing how manipulative Kalista is in this story.

    Plus, Kyle is simply not the kind of guy that would cheat on his girlfriend no matter the situation. Again, it looks like this characterization in particular is being forced on him.

    Also I absolutely hate Kyle/Carol so anything that gets rid of that is completely fine by me.
    I don't really care about it but Carol demonstrated much more personality in NG than, like, ever before.

    Speaking about other change of characters, Guy didn't really regress, he actually progressed since he left behind most of his anger issues and tries to get a balance on things (then again, I'm not saying his portrayal in Lost Army is perfect since I don't think any character there is particularly well written, especially John).

  10. #40
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    I haven't read Omega Men past issue one* so I can't speak to the other issues. Tom and I are friends, though, and we've spoke about Kyle. The Kyle tends to think of himself as a GL was the way I looked at it as well - he was the (and then a) White Lantern, but his introduction into the concept of there being alien life and his role in the universe was through the lens of having been a GL.

    That's why (by design) he does more green constructs in the NG run - it's just his reflex and it's related to how he thinks of himself. This was, subtly, a limitation on him AS the WL; Kyle is creative and can come up with new and interesting ways to use the full spectrum of powers. But when the situation gets hairy, he'll default to using green (and specifically, using constructs rather than the myriad of other abilities he had at his disposal) although it's not the best way to handle all situations.

    If I were writing a White Lantern Corps book, you'd see this in action - Saysoran was never a GL, for instance, and would use the powers of the ring much differently than Kyle, and would approach solving problems differently. Likewise everyone else.

    *Which I quite liked - the only reason I've only read issue one is I make it to the shop about quarterly, so I am pretty much always behind.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Jordan View Post
    If I were writing a White Lantern Corps book,
    Why the hell aren't you?


    (Thanks for posting.)

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Jordan View Post
    If I were writing a White Lantern Corps book, you'd see this in action - Saysoran was never a GL, for instance, and would use the powers of the ring much differently than Kyle, and would approach solving problems differently. Likewise everyone else.
    Shame we never got that.

  13. #43
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    Lets not ignore the possibility that Kyle knows more than he shows and is basically deliberately playing into their trap.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Lets not ignore the possibility that Kyle knows more than he shows and is basically deliberately playing into their trap.
    I hadn't really considered this angle, but it seems so unlikely. If it was all a ruse by Kyle, it would be one hell of a turn around!

    I wish I had the knowledge some forum members have with the character, to be able to weigh in on the topic with a more history based opinion, so take mine with a grain of salt.....

    I get that he's most likely seemingly tackled bigger obstacles in other books, but was it when he had his ring? My take on the whole Kyle self-pity party is that he willingly gave up his ring, thinking he could go in and make a difference being powerless. It doesn't get much more self-assured than that, IMO.

    I'm not sure how out of character it is, but feeling your decision led to people dying, and getting tricked and imprisoned by people you thought you could negotiate with, could make almost anyone hard on themselves for a bit.

    I can also understand, and can respect the fans who are peeved that Kyle is being used as a springboard to build up The Omega men, but we're only 4 issues in, so there's lots of time for Kyle to pick himself up and turn it around!

  15. #45
    Incredible Member Ishmael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Lets not ignore the possibility that Kyle knows more than he shows and is basically deliberately playing into their trap.
    I thought this too. They've not shown themselves to be trustworthy, so why be fully transparent with them? Fudge your own history a bit (skip the WL stuff) and don't let on what you fully believe about the situation. They've supposedly stuck a bomb in his throat -- I would be highly adverse to revealing all my cards to anyone after that.

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