Teen Jean the first time Jean was written as protagonist

[Wiccan]

What I really wanted was for Jean to come back as Phoenix and stay like this forever. With no more Phoenix possessing other people, no more eggs, no more craziness and Dark Phoenix and no more anything, just Jean as Phoenix all the time like Claremont and Morrison.

[dragonmp93]

Sooo... This thread's point is to discuss about Jean vs Jeen? Or is it to discuss Jean in general as a character?

Well, in any case, I have to say that I've noticed that many people who like Jeen also seem to be people who never liked Jean or cared about her as a character and their main reason for liking Jeen is that she is completely different from Jean. It's just funny to me.

Personally I would prefer Jean over Jeen since I don't see Jeen as Jean. Like many have pointed out she is very different from Jean and really only things that these 2 have in common are that they share the same names and powers. Other than that they are very different. That's why I can't really accept Jeen as a replacement for Jean. On top of that I don't find Jeen to be an engaging or likable character in her own right. To me she is the exact opposite. I don't see her as a good character. She just largely comes off as bratty, selfish and annoying. Very similar to Hope Summers (at least when she was written badly) actually. And that's not a good thing IMO.

What comes to the portrayal of adult Jean over the years? Well, it's been very varied.

At the beginning she was written as the token girl by Stan Lee and other writers of the 60's and 70's. After that Claremont, known for his powerful female characters, revamped her into the Phoenix and killed her off (DISCLAIMER: I know that he originally wanted to depower her instead of killing her). After she was brought back from the dead she was written pretty decently during the 80's (when she was part of X-Factor) and then very variably by the multiple writers of the 90's/early 00's with some reverting her back into her token chick days and being a weak female (not helped by her portrayal in TAS) while other writers, like Morrison (and CC), actually wrote her pretty well (depicting her as a stronger, competent and asskicking character at times).

It's just unfortunate that most writers have often found themselves unable to resist the urge to bring the Phoenix back into the picture once again to rehash the classic story (even Morrison fell into this trap despite supposedly not wanting to fall into cliched tropes) and that has seriously hurt her as a character.

Overall I think that she could very easily be an entertaining and compelling character if some good writer who can resist the urge of going back to Phoenix could get a chance to write her. But at the moment Marvel doesn't want to bring her back due to multiple reasons so it's a moot point.

Well, i think that every writer uses the Phoenix because that's the only time Jean can be something besides of the reliable one, the goody two-shoes, the moral supporting character.

[JustAnotherFan]

What I really wanted was for Jean to come back as Phoenix and stay like this forever. With no more Phoenix possessing other people, no more eggs, no more craziness and Dark Phoenix and no more anything, just Jean as Phoenix all the time like Claremont and Morrison.

I'm not sure if that's really possible. At this point Phoenix is supposed to be an omnipotent cosmic force and a protagonist with omnipotent powers is pretty hard to write.

Well, i think that every writer uses the Phoenix because that's the only time Jean can be something besides of the reliable one, the goody two-shoes, the moral supporting character.

Maybe Marvel should then hire better writers who can find a way to write Jean without always resorting to the same old gimmick. Maybe even *gasp* write Jean as a competent and strong yet human character!

Because that IS always a possibility.

Or maybe Marvel should challenge their writers more by denying them access to the Phoenix. It's a lazy plot device/Macguffin at this point and really should be shelved because nobody seems to be able to do anything exciting with it. Just look at Secret Wars where Doom wiped the floor on Phoenix powered Cyclops. When your supposedly omnipotent cosmic force/entity starts to suffer from the Worf Effect and is demoted to getting it's ass kicked to show how powerful the latest villain is it's time to stop using it.

[Wiccan]

I'm not sure if that's really possible. At this point Phoenix is supposed to be an omnipotent cosmic force and a protagonist with omnipotent powers is pretty hard to write.

I'm pretty sure that's the reason she's still dead

[ExodusCloak]

Sooo... This thread's point is to discuss about Jean vs Jeen? Or is it to discuss Jean in general as a character?

Well, in any case, I have to say that I've noticed that many people who like Jeen also seem to be people who never liked Jean or cared about her as a character and their main reason for liking Jeen is that she is completely different from Jean. It's just funny to me.

Personally I would prefer Jean over Jeen since I don't see Jeen as Jean. Like many have pointed out she is very different from Jean and really only things that these 2 have in common are that they share the same names and powers. Other than that they are very different. That's why I can't really accept Jeen as a replacement for Jean. On top of that I don't find Jeen to be an engaging or likable character in her own right. To me she is the exact opposite. I don't see her as a good character. She just largely comes off as bratty, selfish and annoying. Very similar to Hope Summers (at least when she was written badly) actually. And that's not a good thing IMO.

What comes to the portrayal of adult Jean over the years? Well, it's been very varied.

At the beginning she was written as the token girl by Stan Lee and other writers of the 60's and 70's. After that Claremont, known for his powerful female characters, revamped her into the Phoenix and killed her off (DISCLAIMER: I know that he originally wanted to depower her instead of killing her). After she was brought back from the dead she was written pretty decently during the 80's (when she was part of X-Factor) and then very variably by the multiple writers of the 90's/early 00's with some reverting her back into her token chick days and being a weak female (not helped by her portrayal in TAS) while other writers, like Morrison (and CC), actually wrote her pretty well (depicting her as a stronger, competent and asskicking character at times).

It's just unfortunate that most writers have often found themselves unable to resist the urge to bring the Phoenix back into the picture once again to rehash the classic story (even Morrison fell into this trap despite supposedly not wanting to fall into cliched tropes) and that has seriously hurt her as a character.

Overall I think that she could very easily be an entertaining and compelling character if some good writer who can resist the urge of going back to Phoenix could get a chance to write her. But at the moment Marvel doesn't want to bring her back due to multiple reasons so it's a moot point.

I'd argue she was written worse in X-Factor then in Stan Lees run and while you could say yeah she got a power up she was written as petulant and petty. And her angst revolved around Cyclops marriage to Madelyne. In fact there are some questionable things she says in X-Factor about Maddie which are borderline psychotic. It's funny to watch it if you like trainwrecks but I can't see how any person who actually liked the character could buy into Louise Simonsons characterisation of her.

[JustAnotherFan]

I'm pretty sure that's the reason she's still dead

It could be. But I think that there's more to it. Marvel doesn't seem to be very afraid to use Phoenix all the damn time and they did bring in another version of Jean. I think that it's mostly because many of the top editors think that she should have stayed dead after DPS (even AvX was written like she never came back after that) and because they prefer her as a dead character who is present in spirit and remembered by the other X-Men but not really physically present, much like Xavier after AvX.

I'd argue she was written worse in X-Factor then in Stan Lees run and while you could say yeah she got a power up she was written as petulant and petty. And her angst revolved around Cyclops marriage to Madelyne. In fact there are some questionable things she says in X-Factor about Maddie which are borderline psychotic. It's funny to watch it if you like trainwrecks but I can't see how any person who actually liked the character could buy into Louise Simonsons characterisation of her.

Maybe so but then again that whole Maddie/Scott/Jean triangle didn't make any of them look good and brought all of these characters down in one way or another and it was all around a mess that would probably warrant a thread of its own to discuss.

[dragonmp93]

I'm not sure if that's really possible. At this point Phoenix is supposed to be an omnipotent cosmic force and a protagonist with omnipotent powers is pretty hard to write.

If the character is a goody two shoes, then yes; but if the character is an antihero, the things become much easier.

Maybe Marvel should then hire better writers who can find a way to write Jean without always resorting to the same old gimmick. Maybe even *gasp* write Jean as a competent and strong yet human character!

Because that IS always a possibility.

Or maybe Marvel should challenge their writers more by denying them access to the Phoenix. It's a lazy plot device/Macguffin at this point and really should be shelved because nobody seems to be able to do anything exciting with it. Just look at Secret Wars where Doom wiped the floor on Phoenix powered Cyclops. When your supposedly omnipotent cosmic force/entity starts to suffer from the Worf Effect and is demoted to getting it's ass kicked to show how powerful the latest villain is it's time to stop using it.

Well, Cyclops' only experience with the Phoenix was in AvX, so it's not like he knows how to use it. Besides, i think that there is more story to that.

It could be. But I think that there's more to it. Marvel doesn't seem to be very afraid to use Phoenix all the damn time and they did bring in another version of Jean. I think that it's mostly because many of the top editors think that she should have stayed dead after DPS (even AvX was written like she never came back after that) and because they prefer her as a dead character who is present in spirit and remembered by the other X-Men but not really physically present, much like Xavier after AvX.

After all, that was why Wolverine named the school, the Jean Grey School; Jean nowdays is simply the image of dead saint.

[Wiccan]

I can imagine a lot of plots with the "Goddess Jean". She could have a solo book too. I would like to see her teaching the kids, healing people, dealing with the responsability of being so powerful, and in her solo book she would mainly deal with entitys and other cosmic threats that matchs her power. She could also choose to "lock" some of her powers in a way that they just release in emergencys, etc. Some personal plots could be get back with Scott, Rachel's born, kinda putting the X-Men as just one again(not one team..you know what I mean), and would probably have some influence in the entire Marvel universe. And well, I imagine her merging with Jeen and in that case she would have a looot of interesting plots.

[PwrdOn]

I'm not sure if that's really possible. At this point Phoenix is supposed to be an omnipotent cosmic force and a protagonist with omnipotent powers is pretty hard to write.

Maybe Marvel should then hire better writers who can find a way to write Jean without always resorting to the same old gimmick. Maybe even *gasp* write Jean as a competent and strong yet human character!

Because that IS always a possibility.

Or maybe Marvel should challenge their writers more by denying them access to the Phoenix. It's a lazy plot device/Macguffin at this point and really should be shelved because nobody seems to be able to do anything exciting with it. Just look at Secret Wars where Doom wiped the floor on Phoenix powered Cyclops. When your supposedly omnipotent cosmic force/entity starts to suffer from the Worf Effect and is demoted to getting it's ass kicked to show how powerful the latest villain is it's time to stop using it.

Part of the difficulty is that most of Jean's significant character development over the years has been tied into the Phoenix concept. Attempting to write her without referencing it at all doesn't give you a whole lot to work with and the results have usually been pretty terrible such as with the X-Factor incarnation. And the whole notion of the Phoenix being the ultimate power up is relatively new, in the initial run Jean still got smacked around quite a bit and did her share of fainting. It was really more of a visual upgrade than anything else, as Claremont attested to.

[MarvelMaster616]

I admit I was among those who wasn't too fond of the idea of the O5 X-men setting up shop in 616 when it was first announced. But as the story has unfolded, it has won me over in every possible way and O5 Jean Grey is a big part of that. She is the main focus of the O5 X-men's struggle. Even before the O5 returned, she was at the center of many conflicts involving Cyclops, Wolverine, Emma Frost, and the main team. She was very much the heart of the X-men for many years. However, she was never really in a position to follow her own path. She always had certain obligations, be it as a headmaster, love interest, or role model. With O5 Jean, those obligations haven't manifested just yet. Instead, she sees how her life ended and decided she wants to make it better. She doesn't want to completely abandon everything, but she does want it to be better.

That's what I've loved about her story since it began to unfold. She's been growing on her own terms. Between her new powers and her expanding role with the team, I don't think there's ever been a time when Jean Grey has been this self-directed as a character. And I think it has been great for her. I also think that's a big reason why she was allowed to join the heavy hitters of the X-men in Extraordinary X-men. She's proven that she can stand with the other X-men as equals. She's also proven that she has a lot of appeal as a character for Marvel. I hope this means that down the line, they'll get her adult form back in action. However, I think that's a ways off. For now, I think her O5 version has a lot more story left to tell.

[Celestialbodies]

So was her original personality upgrade and makeover in fairness.

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/secrets-b...nix-had-to-die







Attachment 26464

I know Claremont is God as far as the X-men are concerned but readers do realize before his run specifically before he turned her into Phoenix, Jean Grey as a character was already on the route to becoming stronger and assertive contrary to popular belief he didn't do anything that wasn't already happening besides giving her more focus and a memorable costume!!!


And just so we're all clear she most assuredly isn't the first X-men to receive a power upgrade or personality shift, especially not recently hell not even in the last few years and definitely not back then or else we wouldn't have so many villains turned heroes running around!!!