"Batman: Second Chances" Writer Recalls Editorial Clashes, Reaction to Robin's Death

[JBatmanFan05]

It seems pretty unlikely to me that: (A) There was that much vocal discontent over Jason's death 20 years after the fact (at least not any more vocal discontent than there ever is about anything else among internet fandom) and (B) Fan discontent had anything to do with Winick's decision to bring him back.

Maybe some truth there, but again, the vote was probably rigged by phone freaks, meaning Jason wasn't voted dead to begin with. And then there were Jason fansites and fan fiction and Jason sold a lot of comics when he returned (how did anyone know who he was enough to drum up such sudden popularity?). And I disagree that they didn't and don't know about Jason's Robin years. Jason fans seem to know a lot about him.

In my experience, all those early post-COIE Batman stories are pretty popular, like Byrne's Superman era was...COIE's reboot drew people in. People were reading. And Jason was liked enough and remembered.

[JokersNuts]

When Jason was dead the amount of people upset about it was negligible. The prevailing feeling among Bat-Fans was that the death added to the tragic nature of Batman and gave him a "greatest mistake" to brood about at length. Fans liked seeing the haunting old Jason Todd costume hanging in the batcave as a constant reminder of what happened and giving an even greater sense of continuity to the Batman legend. If there was a faction of Bat-Fans that continued to support Jason and want to see him return, they were in a severe and largely quiet minority.
When Judd Winnick brought the character back circa 2006 the reaction was extremely mixed, with some favoring the Red Hood story and direction, and some not. (to quote Denny O'Niel on the back of the original Death in the Family TPB "It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him back".) During the nearly 20 odd years of Jason's death the feeling was that the death of Jason was as sacred as the death of Gwen Stacey and that he would never return. But he eventually did.

[Aioros22]

Whatever Jason or writer being instantly "hated" is more overblown than anything. Understandably there would always be a section of fandom that didn`t like Batman having another Robin other than Grayson, but Grayson was extremely popular as Nigthwing at the time.

This whole "hated" thing, whatever it is, only started because editorial picked a silly phone stunt to scapegoat readers into their creative process, or lack of it.

[JBatmanFan05]

When Judd Winnick brought the character back circa 2006 the reaction was extremely mixed, with some favoring the Red Hood story and direction, and some not. (to quote Denny O'Niel on the back of the original Death in the Family TPB "It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him back".) During the nearly 20 odd years of Jason's death the feeling was that the death of Jason was as sacred as the death of Gwen Stacey and that he would never return. But he eventually did.

I wasn't happy when Jason was returned, I still don't prefer it. But the money spoke: His return sold very well and Jason went like viral and is tremendously popular still.

So really, money-wise, the reaction wasn't mixed: Fans wanted Jason back, big time.

The black sheep Robin appealed to emos or anime fans or whatever, I don't know exactly. The very Robin that Collins and Starlin did.

[Aioros22]

When Jason was dead the amount of people upset about it was negligible. The prevailing feeling among Bat-Fans was that the death added to the tragic nature of Batman and gave him a "greatest mistake" to brood about at length. Fans liked seeing the haunting old Jason Todd costume hanging in the batcave as a constant reminder of what happened and giving an even greater sense of continuity to the Batman legend.

They had backlash then, also among the fans (Miller was know for hating it, among the pros). But sure the tragedy was a recipe to push the drama in stories, as Marvel`s mutant editorial did with the death of Jean Grey. This thread is a bit weird because neither verson of Jason was universally loved or hated by everyone (and he had to deal with the obvious comparions to the original) and that extends to his death too.

"Negligible" sounds to me kind of like rewriting history. This was the time where fan letters about "their" Robin dying came up with the answer that "we`re really sorry you`re sad but you fans killed him" silliness.

If there was a faction of Bat-Fans that continued to support Jason and want to see him return, they were in a severe and largely quiet minority.

There`s no "if". There was. Jason was dead, but notice how often his "ghost" would pop out. The Robin of the animated series was mostly Jason with Tim`s name. The Robin of Batman Forever was Jason with Dick Grayson`s origin.

When Judd Winnick brought the character back circa 2006 the reaction was extremely mixed, with some favoring the Red Hood story and direction, and some not.

Reaction was mostly positive from what I recall and it wasn`t that long ago. It was mostly positive or thread making in forums and received nice reviews at the time (likely the best received DC run of Judd). The proof? DC made one of it`s best animated efforts ever out of this story.

(to quote Denny O'Niel on the back of the original Death in the Family TPB "It would be a really sleazy stunt to bring him back".) During the nearly 20 odd years of Jason's death the feeling was that the death of Jason was as sacred as the death of Gwen Stacey and that he would never return. But he eventually did.

That O`Neill quote is one of the most Lollastic of this side of editorial department ever. Look how long they brough "Robin" back after the backlash.

[Aioros22]

I wasn't happy when Jason was returned, I still don't prefer it. But the money spoke: His return sold very well and Jason went like viral and is tremendously popular still.

So really, money-wise, the reaction wasn't mixed: Fans wanted Jason back, big time.

The black sheep Robin appealed to emos or whatever, I don't know exactly. The very Robin that Collins and Starlin did.

Pretty much. You saw it even before, when Hush was coming out and the reaction upon the reveal of Jason. Money. The fact he`s got an aura of controversy that others don`t only spice his value up.

[kade82]

There is a lot of love for Jason Todd now, but I was at a sci-fi/comics convention in St. Louis in late 1983 and it was a different story. Jason had been introduced less than a year before and had put on a Robin-ish costume (in 'Tec 526) about eight months before. At a DC panel, the mention of the new Robin led to some very vocal "kill Jason" comments. A little over four years later, it happened.

For me, personally, I didn't hate Jason Todd, but I preferred the pre-Crisis Dick Grayson clone to the post-Crisis juvenile delinquent. Post-Crisis, I believe only Mike W. Barr wrote the character well and that only because he wrote him as a young Dick Grayson but typed Jason Todd in his scripts.

[simonis]

Well, this guy sounds like a pain in the ass. Poor Denny O'Neil.

I'm not so sure. I met Max Allan Collins and had a good chat with him, and his previous writing has been good. I have great respect for Denny O'Neill as a writer (his and Cowan's "The Question" is a benchmark for street-level superhero comics), but I've heard varying opinions about his work as an editor at DC. Was that conflict with the higher-ups? Who knows. But if Collins' stories are true - no bible, no facts on shared universe stuff - that's amazing that batman was semi-coherent back then.

[Aioros22]

There is a lot of love for Jason Todd now, but I was at a sci-fi/comics convention in St. Louis in late 1983 and it was a different story. Jason had been introduced less than a year before and had put on a Robin-ish costume (in 'Tec 526) about eight months before. At a DC panel, the mention of the new Robin led to some very vocal "kill Jason" comments. A little over four years later, it happened.

I wouldn`t expect anything less. He was being introduced with Dick Grayson moving out of the gig. The salvation of Tim`s role is that writers compared him to Jason and only on the bad qualities and hardly the good ones (the ones noticed by Batman, Grayson, Superman, Plastic Man and the Titans).

For me, personally, I didn't hate Jason Todd, but I preferred the pre-Crisis Dick Grayson clone to the post-Crisis juvenile delinquent. Post-Crisis, I believe only Mike W. Barr wrote the character well and that only because he wrote him as a young Dick Grayson but typed Jason Todd in his scripts.

I never talked with him personally, but there were differences back then between the two, outside the origin. Wolfman wrote both him and Dick during the time Jason served as active member of the Titans and he didn`t write both the same either. But I won`t generally disagree or be surprised if a writer did that, consciously or not.

In some ways, until they started to push the rebellious streak on him, he was considered by his peers as more mature than Dick with the same age, likely due to having to survive on his own.

[JBatmanFan05]

But if Collins' stories are true - no bible, no facts on shared universe stuff - that's amazing that batman was semi-coherent back then.

Did any comic character have such clear bibles? I genuinely don't know and could stand to be enlightened here. But I'm blindly guessing that Collins wrongly thought comics are like other characters he worked with in other mediums like books and newspapers. I myself wouldn't knock DC or Denny at all for the lack of Batman bible....such a thing might remove the creative freedom from building up a character's mythology if a bunch of things are firmly and pre-decided. I bet for a lot characters....the bible was the prior issues themselves.

Plus, just looked it up, Fleisher's The Encyclopedia of Comic Book Heroes Volume One: Batman came out in 1976 and I own that and that's quite very biblish. I'd bet that was in DC's office. You might say it was outdated by then, but it had plenty of basics that would have been still in force and allowed in 1986.

[kade82]

I never talked with him personally, but there were differences back then between the two, outside the origin. Wolfman wrote both him and Dick during the time Jason served as active member of the Titans and he didn`t write both the same either. But I won`t generally disagree or be surprised if a writer did that either.

I should have clarified my statement about Barr writing Jason as Dick Grayson. I didn't intend to convey that he actually did so, but his Robin was more impetuous than others writing Jason Todd at that the time, more willing to joke around, and it seemed to me that Barr took his cue from the 1940s-era Dick Grayson/Robin who was a daredevil and punster. With Batman as a character getting more grim and the stories darker and grittier, Barr wrote the Jason Todd Robin as a lighter character. I remember enjoying those stories.

[Aioros22]

I should have clarified my statement about Barr writing Jason as Dick Grayson. I didn't intend to convey that he actually did so, but his Robin was more impetuous than others writing Jason Todd at that the time, more willing to joke around, and it seemed to me that Barr took his cue from the 1940s-era Dick Grayson/Robin who was a daredevil and punster. With Batman as a character getting more grim and the stories darker and grittier, Barr wrote the Jason Todd Robin as a lighter character. I remember enjoying those stories.

Ah I understand, I actually agree with the ligther tone. But I would go further and note that on the whole, even Batman looked lighter compared with other stories at the same time. He was more paternal, less grumpy, more like his later 60s/early 70s self. He would call either Dick (Full Circle) or Jason "chum" with a smile and everything.

I love that run. It`s one of the most balanced tones I`ve ever read on Batman. Not exactly kiddie stuff but not full scale grim either.

[kade82]

Ah I understand, I actually agree with the ligther tone. But I would go further and note that on the whole, even Batman looked lighter compared with other stories at the same time. He was more paternal, less grumpy, more like his later 60s/early 70s self. He would call either Dick (Full Circle) or Jason "chum" with a smile and everything.

I love that run. It`s one of the most balanced tones I`ve ever read on Batman. Not exactly kiddie stuff but not full scale grim either.

I agree! I dropped out of comics shortly after the Barr/Davis run, in part, because the Batman I enjoyed most -- later '60s/early '80s pre-Crisis -- was being "reinvented" as a darker character. I keep coming back to comics but outside of the early run of Shadow of the Bat by Grant and Breyfogle have not really enjoyed a lot of Batman stories in the past 25 years. I don't want camp or sci-fi Batman, but I would totally buy something in the vein of the best of the '70s/‘80s Batman stories without being excessively dark.

Of course, I still want the original pre-Crisis DC back (I even have a way figured out that makes more sense (to me, at least -- LOL) than the route DC is choosing to use); respect and a new series for the original JSA; collected editions (not Showcase Presents) for Scribbly and the Red Tornado, Sugar & Spike, Batman and the Outsiders, The Brave and the Bold, DC Comics Presents, Nathaniel Dusk, All-Star Squadron, Infinity, Inc., and the DC Comics work of Alan Brennert; gas prices under a dollar per gallon; and world peace. Not asking for much, am I? :-)