Will Marvel's reboot without being a reboot ever be undone.

[Carabas]

I think... I think these changes are going to be permanent.
My first post on cbr got deleted a long time ago, and without needless hyperbole I basically said that marvel is subject ultimately to disneys agenda.
The second they said: commitment to diversity. I knew what that meant was going to be something akin to the way Darth Vader brought "Balance" to the force.

They were going to destroy the marvel universe to make way for diversity brands.

Now, even asuming that this is permanent (which it is not because movies) what exactly has been destroyed here?

The Marvel Universe is a lot bigger than "Captain America is white and Thor has a penis".

[Xalfrea]

kids who grew up with these knock off replacement characters.

One man's knockoff could be a future kid's hero.

What makes Falcon as Captain America less worthy than Steve Rogers as Captain America just because he's not the original? So what if there will be kids who look up to Kamala Khan more than Carol Danvers? What would it matter if Miles Morales inspired someone instead of Peter Parker? What if a girl is taken in by Laura's badassness instead of Logan's?

Heroes are heroes. Anybody can be a hero to anybody. Just because they're the original, or they don't have powers, or are not even real, doesn't mean they're unworthy or, as you call them, knockoffs.

[Midnight_v]

Now, even asuming that this is permanent (which it is not because movies) what exactly has been destroyed here?

The Marvel Universe is a lot bigger than "Captain America is white and Thor has a penis".

*yawn* thanks for bring baseness into the discussion. Without being pedantic, they literally collapse the marvel universe and have doctor doom as Almighty God. Also, cap is old and wolverine is old. Though to be honest when faced with seeming willful ignorance I'm thinking "whatever, carabas" might be a better response.

One man's knockoff could be a future kid's hero.

Well... I'm people are reading what I'm saying, or just skimming but... thats kinda the point i was making. Thats what marvels shooting for. Draw a line. say this is what where going, and we'll accept the short term loss for a long term investment, of controlling the kids, and what they think of when they see the brand i.d. .
Further...

One man's knockoff could be a future kid's hero.

yep, to me they're knockoffs, and unworthy, but... eventually with enough effort, they can control the narrative for generations to come. Some people will if it's a success, grow up with the inhumans instead of the xmen.

on an aside... falcon is so bad. I should really one day do a thread on whats WRONG with the falcon as a choice. If we had to go there, if the only way for him to go forward was to race bend him the cap should have been handed to luke. He's literally the american reality for so many people. . . and heck his powers were granted originally by trying to remake the serum. Sometimes its NOT anything but things like that, I don't mind the avenger changing once in a while but the choices weren't only panderific, they were kinda ...just bad.

[SuperiorIronman]

Whatever legacy hero is introduced people will always complain and there really will never be anything but complaints. It's a sad fact of the matter because a lot of times legacy hero stories are actually really good but are treated as inferior on the premise that they aren't the original. This wont always be the case but it is typical of the argument that hero A is not hero B and therefore is inferior. I find this a weak argument in all honesty. As well if you know about the fan reaction to something, the Clone saga replaced Peter Parker with himself. It goes to show that fans will hardly ever accept change.

What is it exactly about Thordis, FalCap, and Miles Morales or even Ms Marvel that gets everyone so riled up? The thing is that the originals haven't gone anywhere. Thor will be back and you are only deluding yourself if you think otherwise as history will repeat itself here (Beta Ray Bill, Thunderstrike) . Steve Rogers is still active even though he is physically old now. Miles and Khamala also haven't even taken on the role of the main book as well. Does Peter Parker really deserve to be the only spider person to make it to market? Can Khamala Khan really not use a name that wasn't even being used at the time of her initial publication? In Miles Morale's case he was never supposed to cross over into the mainstream publishing line anyways, so of course there will be some overlap here and there because Miles was supposed to be spider-man in his book. Khamala also used a name that wasn't in use at the time. Doesn't this mean we all have to campaign for the Human torch to get a different name because he took Jim Hammond's identity? What about the first Vision? How can we really make a case for the usage of identities when some characters have been doing just that.

I guess at the end of the day preference is really a comic publishers biggest enemy. People prefer the original whereas some prefer the remix.

[Carabas]

*yawn* thanks for bring baseness into the discussion.

It was always there.

Without being pedantic, they literally collapse the marvel universe and have doctor doom as Almighty God. Also, cap is old and wolverine is old. Though to be honest when faced with seeming willful ignorance I'm thinking "whatever, carabas" might be a better response.

It's a story. It's going to end. Then they'll tell another story.
And Wolverine has always been old. So has Cap...

Well... I'm people are reading what I'm saying, or just skimming but... thats kinda the point i was making. Thats what marvels shooting for. Draw a line. say this is what where going, and we'll accept the short term loss for a long term investment, of controlling the kids, and what they think of when they see the brand i.d. .

I know the words are in English, and are arranged in a somewhat sentence-like manner. I have no idea what you're getting at.

Further... yep, to me they're knockoffs, and unworthy, but... eventually with enough effort, they can control the narrative for generations to come. Some people will if it's a success, grow up with the inhumans instead of the xmen.

Unworthy of what, exactly?
For generation to come? Really?

Because I recall Spider-Man being unmasked which they swore up and down was permanent or at least going to last years. and then it went awayaffter 6 months.

And I recall Steve Rogers being perma-killed and replaced forever by Bucky. And then that went away (way too soon by my reckoning).

on an aside... falcon is so bad. I should really one day do a thread on whats WRONG with the falcon as a choice. If we had to go there, if the only way for him to go forward was to race bend him the cap should have been handed to luke. He's literally the american reality for so many people. . . and heck his powers were granted originally by trying to remake the serum. Sometimes its NOT anything but things like that, I don't mind the avenger changing once in a while but the choices weren't only panderific, they were kinda ...just bad.

So... Luke Cage, the guy that barely knows him and not the Falcon, the guy that has been Cap's quasi-regular partner for literally decades?

You still haven't explained what is so bad about this. When you try you just say you don't like it more explicitly. Or degenerate into conspiracy-theory Disney mindcontrol fantasies.

[Bunai]

*Morgan Freeman* 'One man's Jim Hammond is another's Johnny Storm.'

[jackolover]

Not all change is bad, but not all changes are good either. Just saying.




I actually feel like, this time, Marvel is willing to see if the changes will stick, or if, at least, the constant change of status -quo does. Sure, change in the identity of a hero is nothing new. Iron Man has been replaced by Rhodey, Cap by John Walker, Thor by Eric Masterson, Spidey by Ben Rilley, ando so on... However, I can't recall a time when all of them was replaced at once. Cap, Hulk, Thor, Nova, Spidey, Ms Marvel, Power Man (this one, long ago replaced, by someone simply younger, and still hasn't reclaimed his name), Wolverine, etc... All of them have characters of different age, etnicity, sex, standing in for the originals.
While I can understand the business aspect of it all, the willingness to make Marvel look hip, modern, in touch with their diverse audience, I can't say I personally like the decision, nor that I agree with many of the choices they made. Falc and Amadeus Cho, for exemple, are both excelent characters on their own right (Cho is, IMHO, one of the few original characters created in the last few years with any true potential) to be sacrificed in the replacement altar. I agree that many of Marvel biggest characters were created in what could almost be a totally different world. Marvel women spent decades trying to rid themselves of the token hostage stain. However, these characters became the Icon they are for some reason, and, quite frankly, I'm not a fan of the fixing what isn't broken mentality. But, the fact is, if this is an organized move by Marvel to seem more fowrad thinking, more in touch with the changing times, garnering a lot of sympathy with this move, how do you think it'll look when it reverts all it "diverse" new charactrer to the original white, male, straight ones. Do you really think they'll run the risk of the media/internet tiddlewave of negative publicity, calling them racists, or homophobes, or sexists, or bigotsin general? Don't think it'll happen? See what happened recently when they refused to confirm that Hercules was Bi.
So, yeah, I think the change is, mostly, here to stay. And if they do change once more, it won't be to the traditional status quo. Teen Tony may not have worked in the 90's, but there is a good chance they might try it again, and Tony will be short for Antonio this time. After all, it's the All-New, All-Different Marvel.

Peace

Is the change permanent, or will the originals still lurk around like grandfathers?

When the Silver Age started, Marvel made a point of not having the 'rents around to give advice and pick on the youngsters forming their own world. Everyone started in a non-adult world, with no fathers days, or mothers days, or uncles giving some legacy that the family had to carry on. The young folks were given a fresh run at the Silver Age and it was they who created that world.

This is 2015. We've already seen Ms Marvel swooning to have Carol Danvers as her mentor. Marvel have the opportunity to make the NuMarvel a parent directed world this time around, with the originals there as guiding lights and instructors. It could be a real fresh start for the new blood Marvel want to introduce into the 2015's, that will not be left to fend for themselves, because really, unlike the Silver Age that had no established villains for them to experience on, the NuMarvel will have a whole Encyclopedia of established villains the young one will be forced to confront with no previous contact. That's why the originals could be the difference here.

[jackolover]

I hope things never go completely back to normal. That isn't saying that I never want to see Bruce as the Hulk or Steve as Captain America again but I certainly hope that when it does happen, it's organic and that the characters that are affected still have the growth, not just a by the numbers reset.

I am excited by almost everything that Marvel has in the works after Secret Wars and those that don't have me excited at least have me intrigued, in my opinion, it's a wonderful time to be a Marvel fan.

We were certainly introduced to a non-Cap in the Heroic Age when Steve became a new role as Commander Rogers, and, Bruce Banner did step aside for the Skaar series about his son, all before NuMarvel, so we have been softened up beforehand.

[jackolover]

You're focusing too much on the surface. Of course Marvel do want to to look diverse and appeal to a younger, wider readership but that is not the driving force behind the changes - as you said yourself Marvel has been in constant flux since (at least) the early 00s, whereas the big diversity push is much more recent. In other words, Marvel would be changing with or without the diversity push; there were always going ot be new characters created, promoted, or emphasised and diversity just affects what type of characters are chosen. And the reason is, if Marvel didn't do this the stories would be so, so incredibly boring. Evolution and progression are fundamental parts of storytelling. In no other medium will you find characters who have been around for half a century and yet haven't aged, and haven't progressed in their lives. Even Bond, who is the only non-comics character I can think of who has been around more or less continuously for as long, gets essentially a soft reboot every time the actor is replaced. Because comic characters are kept in a permanent state of arrested development, the only way to introduce the vital change and development necessary to keep the stories fresh and interesting is to shuffle the characters about, create new ones, kill off older ones temporarily, age characters unnaturally, use a magic plot device to make a character switch from good or evil, etc. etc. The great irony is that the people who get most upset by all these contrived character replacements of their favourite heroes are the same people who Marvel are catering to by never letting their favourite heroes grow, age or develop.

The Phantom newspaper strip is changing, getting the readership ready for his children to take the costume. I'm surprised this wasn't done by Marvel the same way, with a handing over to another character, even though the previous is handicapped by age or injury.

[jackolover]

I don't think merchandising is as much a problem as you (and admittedly probably Marvel) think.

First of all, you have to think about towards whom merchandising is marketed. Essentially, you have two consumer bases for merchandise: kids buying toys and older enthusiasts buying collectors items. For kids, brand loyalty doesn't really extend beyond what they think is cool at any given moment. Currently the classic Avengers are cool, not because the kids recognise them as a 50 year old brand, but because they have collectively starred in a bunch of blockbuster movies recently. However, you could ask for no greater proof that kids couldn't give a shit about name recognition that the phenomenal success of Guardians of the Galaxy and all related merchandise. As long as your characters feature in a popular cartoon or film, kids will lap up the merchandise too. It doesn't matter if they're established or not.

For the older enthusiasts, nostalgia and established characters will have a greater draw, but that's fine - just because the comics have moved on doesn't mean the merchandising has to! Case in point, there was a classic Phoenix statue released within the last year despite the fact Jean has been dead for years and hasn't warn that costume (I think?) for decades. You regularly see statues and other collectors items based on classic, defunct versions of characters and there's no reason to stop making them simply because they don't appear in the contemporary comics.

As for the difficulties with introducing new characters in the comics: yes it is hard, but the difficulty stems from the very fact that established characters never change or go away. How do you introduce new characters when the playing field is already flooded with characters who are never removed permanently? If you love Hero X, why invest in his replacement, emotionally or financially, when you know X will be back in a few years - sooner if you don't buy the series featuring his replacement? It is only because the classic characters have never gone away and barely changed over the years that their continued, unchanging existence has become an expectation, and in many cases a perceived entitlement. People don't expect characters in other forms of fiction to last forever because they never have, and they exist in fictional worlds where time actually passes so it would be impossible for the characters to last forever. If the sliding timescale didn't exist it would be much easier to introduce new characters because they would be not only expected but necessary for the story to continue - I've never heard of anyone complaining that a new soap character was replacing their favourite, or stopping reading the Lord of the Rings because Gandalf and Boromir died. If you need conclusive proof that is not in any way normal to place the continuing existence of a specific character over the actual story being told, consider the fact that Game of Thrones is one of the most popular TV shows right now and it trades on the very fact your favourite characters will probably meet a horrible end.

Finally, I think that the MCU, if anything, would be a reason to abolish the sliding timescale. You simply can't have a sliding time scale in the MCU, because you can't stop the actors aging. Inevitably, whether through contracts ending or the actors simply getting too old, the current lot of Marvel talent are no longer going to be suitable for the roles they are playing. At that point there are three options for Marvel: they can do a Bond and replace the actors but keep the characters, they can do a hard reboot, or they can introduce a new generation of heroes as the older ones retire, are killed or take on supporting roles as mentors and so on. Of the three options the latter seems like by far the most sensible, and the most likely to go down well with cinema audiences. This will mean the MCU is always pushed forwards, with no way - other than a hard reboot - to return to the status quo like the comics do. As you noted yourself, the comics tend to take a lot of cues from the MCU (since the MCU has a wider reach and is therefore the more recognizable). I think, and hope, that that might encourage the publishing side to abolish the hegemony of the older characters.

Marvel had a real opportunity to get some distance in time for the originals if NuMarvel was set as 8 years have passed, not Secret Wars Battleworld. Then the Originals could have been pushed aside in that period, and the newsies have established themselves fully, and all you see of the originals is the occasional appearance, as Hank Pym had become for much of his later life up to Time Runs Out. Pym wasn't active anymore as an Avenger and just became a tutor for the most part.

[jackolover]

*yawn* thanks for bring baseness into the discussion. Without being pedantic, they literally collapse the marvel universe and have doctor doom as Almighty God. Also, cap is old and wolverine is old. Though to be honest when faced with seeming willful ignorance I'm thinking "whatever, carabas" might be a better response.

Well... I'm people are reading what I'm saying, or just skimming but... thats kinda the point i was making. Thats what marvels shooting for. Draw a line. say this is what where going, and we'll accept the short term loss for a long term investment, of controlling the kids, and what they think of when they see the brand i.d. .
Further... yep, to me they're knockoffs, and unworthy, but... eventually with enough effort, they can control the narrative for generations to come. Some people will if it's a success, grow up with the inhumans instead of the xmen.

on an aside... falcon is so bad. I should really one day do a thread on whats WRONG with the falcon as a choice. If we had to go there, if the only way for him to go forward was to race bend him the cap should have been handed to luke. He's literally the american reality for so many people. . . and heck his powers were granted originally by trying to remake the serum. Sometimes its NOT anything but things like that, I don't mind the avenger changing once in a while but the choices weren't only panderific, they were kinda ...just bad.

I don't think they could have an unbreakable Captain America. They really had to have someone who was going to be vulnerable to injury and physical damage, like Falcon.

[jackolover]

Whatever legacy hero is introduced people will always complain and there really will never be anything but complaints. It's a sad fact of the matter because a lot of times legacy hero stories are actually really good but are treated as inferior on the premise that they aren't the original. This wont always be the case but it is typical of the argument that hero A is not hero B and therefore is inferior. I find this a weak argument in all honesty. As well if you know about the fan reaction to something, the Clone saga replaced Peter Parker with himself. It goes to show that fans will hardly ever accept change.

What is it exactly about Thordis, FalCap, and Miles Morales or even Ms Marvel that gets everyone so riled up? The thing is that the originals haven't gone anywhere. Thor will be back and you are only deluding yourself if you think otherwise as history will repeat itself here (Beta Ray Bill, Thunderstrike) . Steve Rogers is still active even though he is physically old now. Miles and Khamala also haven't even taken on the role of the main book as well. Does Peter Parker really deserve to be the only spider person to make it to market? Can Khamala Khan really not use a name that wasn't even being used at the time of her initial publication? In Miles Morale's case he was never supposed to cross over into the mainstream publishing line anyways, so of course there will be some overlap here and there because Miles was supposed to be spider-man in his book. Khamala also used a name that wasn't in use at the time. Doesn't this mean we all have to campaign for the Human torch to get a different name because he took Jim Hammond's identity? What about the first Vision? How can we really make a case for the usage of identities when some characters have been doing just that.

I guess at the end of the day preference is really a comic publishers biggest enemy. People prefer the original whereas some prefer the remix.

I mean, I could read Ms Marvel Khamala because she was different to Carol Danvers, but I couldn't read Sam Nova, Miles, Gwen or Jane, because it was a violation of the characters before them. I tried Sam Wilson, though, because he was an established character and not some made up newby.

[ijacksparrow]

The relaunch after Secret Wars is clearly an wasted opportunity of going epic and building a new rivalry between Cap and Tony, making Steve the leader of the Avengers and Tony the co-leader of the Ultimates with Black Panther, imho. Think blue and gold X-Men teams. My opinion is that they are betting on forced diversity of characters instead of hiring new and up and coming diversity creators, and at the same time betting on the Marvel Cinematic Universe synergy, that in my opinion should be the way to go if you want people that watch the movies to get your comics. Kids that go watch these movies don't recognize the characters on these comics, and there are clever ways to introduce them than alienating them with a team of Avengers formed with kids that they haven't heard of.

With that said, the Marvel Comics universe will get better eventually. Businesswise though, I say it's a terrible mistake, that it'll cost them. Disney should get hands on with Marvel Comics and take it away from Perlmutter, and at same time make some big changes in the editorial side of things, get new blood there. I'd dare to say that Steve Wacker or Craig Yost should be the ones running the asylum right now, under the supervision of Kevin Feige himself. But oh well, comics will keep relaunching and the sales will keep dropping, until someone gets there and change the status quo, like Quesada did back in the day.

[Tiamatty]

Marvel had a real opportunity to get some distance in time for the originals if NuMarvel was set as 8 years have passed, not Secret Wars Battleworld. Then the Originals could have been pushed aside in that period, and the newsies have established themselves fully, and all you see of the originals is the occasional appearance, as Hank Pym had become for much of his later life up to Time Runs Out. Pym wasn't active anymore as an Avenger and just became a tutor for the most part.

The problem is comic fans are threatened by change and want the same shit they've already been reading about for years. They want the characters from the '60s or '70s. If they were created later than 1980, readers want them gone. If they were created in the past 15 years? Even worse. That's why people want Sam Alexander killed off. It's why some people still refuse to acknowledge Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel. It's why characters can't change their costumes without people flipping out like it's the worst thing to ever happen to the character.

And it's why Marvel will never be able to actually move forward in time. They will always need to set things back to how they were in the '70s. The fans won't allow anything else. The fact that Loki hasn't been turned back into a villain yet is damned near miraculous, but even that's bound to happen eventually.

So Marvel couldn't move forward 8 years. That would mean the landscape would have to be vastly different, and more important, that the different landscape would have to be permanent. Certain characters would have to become new mainstays on various teams going forward. Writers would have to keep going back to Wiccan and Hulkling as Avengers mainstays, or Anole as one of the leaders of the X-Men. But neither the writers nor the fans want that. They want Scarlet Witch and Vision on the Avengers. They want Cyclops or Storm (or Xavier) as leaders of the X-Men. They want the same old status quo that they're familiar with.

[Tiamatty]

The relaunch after Secret Wars is clearly an wasted opportunity of going epic and building a new rivalry between Cap and Tony, making Steve the leader of the Avengers and Tony the co-leader of the Ultimates with Black Panther, imho. Think blue and gold X-Men teams. My opinion is that they are betting on forced diversity of characters instead of hiring new and up and coming diversity creators, and at the same time betting on the Marvel Cinematic Universe synergy, that in my opinion should be the way to go if you want people that watch the movies to get your comics. Kids that go watch these movies don't recognize the characters on these comics, and there are clever ways to introduce them than alienating them with a team of Avengers formed with kids that they haven't heard of.

I do think that getting more non-white writers in there is an absolute necessity at this point. Right now, ANADM will have Greg Pak and . . . that's it. There's been hints that there's going to be a black writer for Black Panther, but until it's confirmed, it doesn't count. And even then, two minority writers out of a few dozen is still pretty damned pathetic.