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  1. #1
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Default Batman/Superman #21 discussion (SPOILERS)

    Anyone else read this?
    I did, and, well....I thought this was pretty good. I mean, it doesn't reach AC 41's level of awesomeness, but when has Batman/Superman ever been? As much as I love t say "in Pak we trust" I really think Kuder is a big reason as to why Action has been so awesome compared to Batman/Superman.

    Warning, spoilers from here on:

    Now, more than ever, this book really feels like a Superman book more than a Batman one, although interestingly enough, not for the same reason. In previous Batman/Superman stories, it felt like a Superman book where Superman fights his usual level of threats, but with Batman as a guest star. Here, the new Batman barely appears at all (though that's probably going to change next issue considering the clifhanger), and the whole thing was pretty much "Superman in Gotham". Those who were hoping for/dreading more hadcore Clark Kent action might be disapointed/relieved, because the preview is all you get. Basically, Superman goes to Gotham to hunt down the Supremascists and decides to figure out what happened to Bruce while he's there, so it's more introspective in tone. There was a pretty nice scene between Clark and Alfred (whose life must really really suck, come to think of it. I mean, Damian, Dick, and Bruce? Granted, Damian came back but still), where Clark shows he knows more about Alfred than I expected. But that's good, because it's the kind of details that shows he and Bruce were genuine friends, and that Bruce did open up to him.
    The book also continues to explore the whole "Truth" aspect of Clark's new life, with a confrontation with Luthor, and most importantly, with Lois. More than ever, the story hints that Lois has ulterior motives, without of course telling you what they are. Still, it explores the relationship between the two in what I found to be fairly interesting and gives us an idea of the consequences the whole thing had on the Planet. In that regard too, the book was more introspective in tone.

    End of spoilers.

    The art was mostly nice, appart from a few faces, and the story was pretty engaging. So, maybe not awesome, but pretty solid. I'd say objectively, it was on par with the last Batman/Superman arc, and wether you like it more or not will depend on you opinion on Truth. As I'm concerned, I'm all in.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  2. #2
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    It wasn't bad, but I admit that I'd have preferred a bigger highlight of Luthor (after all, it's his archenemy's most important moment) and the art was nice, but nothing more.
    I like the supporting cast (the Asian cop) getting larger, though.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    It was okay, so far looks slightly worse than Xanadu's arc, but those were, I think, strongest issues of B/S. While reading I was also wondering, where stuff from annual will be addressed?

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    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    It was okay, so far looks slightly worse than Xanadu's arc, but those were, I think, strongest issues of B/S. While reading I was also wondering, where stuff from annual will be addressed?
    I was wondering the same. That was a hell of a cliffhanger, but so far it seems it doesn't to connect in any meaningful way to TRUTH.

  5. #5
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    So we can finally say once and for all that Lois feels she was justified in what she did and doesn't feel she was in the wrong?
    Last edited by The World; 06-10-2015 at 12:38 PM.
    "That was some good ass Tekken" - Tasty Steve

  6. #6
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    I was wondering the same. That was a hell of a cliffhanger, but so far it seems it doesn't to connect in any meaningful way to TRUTH.
    Well, considering that the Superman book will be a prequel to AC and Batman/Superman, and Superman 43 will be a flashback within the prequel.
    So, I suspect that it ends up being explored as significant, it will probably be there.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    So we can finally say once and for all the Lois feels she was justified in what she did and doesn't feel she was in the wrong?
    Apparently Diana is backing her on the matter from what she says, it's really Clark that is still very knee-jerk about it. She's trying to be rational, feels that she has support, and is trying to move on as quickly as possible for both their sakes but he can't bring himself to realize that over the phone and waits 'till she's ticked enough to hang up to think "Eh, fair enough point"

    Typical bloke eh?
    Last edited by Loose Threads; 06-10-2015 at 09:53 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    So we can finally say once and for all the Lois feels she was justified in what she did and doesn't feel she was in the wrong?
    Character assassination to try and justify this misfire.

    Congrats, DC now gets what they wanted. A de-powered Superman who acts just like Batman.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    So we can finally say once and for all the Lois feels she was justified in what she did and doesn't feel she was in the wrong?
    I think it's still muddled. Lois does, after all, apologize to Clark in the FCBD issue by saying she "had no right" to do what she did and that she should have "found another way." I'd say she has regrets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I think it's still muddled. Lois does, after all, apologize to Clark in the FCBD issue by saying she "had no right" to do what she did and that she should have "found another way." I'd say she has regrets.
    Does that take place after this issue though?

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kandor Rising View Post
    Character assassination to try and justify this misfire.

    Congrats, DC now gets what they wanted. A de-powered Superman who acts just like Batman.
    How was he like Batman?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kandor Rising View Post
    Character assassination to try and justify this misfire.

    Congrats, DC now gets what they wanted. A de-powered Superman who acts just like Batman.
    I'm in the middle of work so I probably shouldn't but I'll bite, what has he done so far that's like Batman?

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I think it's still muddled. Lois does, after all, apologize to Clark in the FCBD issue by saying she "had no right" to do what she did and that she should have "found another way." I'd say she has regrets.
    Time differential and reflection probably changed her mind.
    "That was some good ass Tekken" - Tasty Steve

  13. #13
    Spadassin Extraordinaire Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loose Threads View Post
    Does that take place after this issue though?
    Batman/Superman happens after the Superman Sneak Peek. And she didn't really express regrets here.
    And that is all I will say on the subject.
    Hold those chains, Clark Kent
    Bear the weight on your shoulders
    Stand firm. Take the pain.

  14. #14
    Fantastic Member MeloDet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I think it's still muddled. Lois does, after all, apologize to Clark in the FCBD issue by saying she "had no right" to do what she did and that she should have "found another way." I'd say she has regrets.
    I imagine that at this point it's supposed to be muddled. Since we don't actually know why Lois did it yet the lack of a clear cut response from Lois or Clark leaves one wondering whether or not she was in the right. As people pointed out before her reaction in Divergence was likely intended to be her simply going over the top in apologizing (whether one thinks its OOC or not). She knows that what she did hurt him and in the beginning was simply fighting to avoid losing her friend. Now that a significant amount of time has passed and he hasn't forgiven her I imagine she's moved past trying to apologize (for her actions, maybe not for the fact that he was hurt) and is trying to get him to realize that she did what she had too.

    Anyway, I enjoyed the issue overall, but the parts with Lois and Alfred were certainly the most interesting. I wasn't nearly as engaged by the Supremacists plot line.

    One other thing I wanted to address was Clark's reaction to Lois. I imagine some people think he's brooding with his inability to forgive Lois, but the whole thing strikes me as being a surprisingly portrayal of human emotion. I imagine that, on a logical level, Clark has understood that he should forgive Lois from the instant she explained herself, but that's easier said then done. Now my opinion on the whole emotion vs logic thing is essentially that, no matter how illogical, any emotions one feels should be looked at as genuine and acceptable. If someone gets angry over some small slight, then it is acceptable for them to be angry; they can't control it after all. Where illogical emotions become an issue is when we let them control our actions. If we are angry but know that we shouldn't be, then it's important to make sure that we don't let our anger affect our actions and treatment of others as much as we can. Thus it's worth noticing that in this issue Clark doesn't really lash out at Lois aside from the single "My identity was outed" comment. Other than that he simply seems to be struggling to talk to her. He's not yelling at her or asking how she could do this to him, he's simply having trouble talking to the person who so drastically flipped his life upside down. Now whether you (general) find that acceptable behaviour for Superman is up to you, but as long as he doesn't start whining or lashing out it's fine by me.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeloDet View Post
    I imagine that at this point it's supposed to be muddled. Since we don't actually know why Lois did it yet the lack of a clear cut response from Lois or Clark leaves one wondering whether or not she was in the right. As people pointed out before her reaction in Divergence was likely intended to be her simply going over the top in apologizing (whether one thinks its OOC or not). She knows that what she did hurt him and in the beginning was simply fighting to avoid losing her friend. Now that a significant amount of time has passed and he hasn't forgiven her I imagine she's moved past trying to apologize (for her actions, maybe not for the fact that he was hurt) and is trying to get him to realize that she did what she had too.
    I agree that it's intentionally muddled to create suspense and mystery, but I don't agree that it's most likely that Lois' initial apology was insincere and over the top. If you have to rely on "Lois was acting out of character" to explain her behavior, there's probably something amiss.

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