Why do People bash Superman as Fascist?

[catman]

As Title say, People bash Superman as Fascist. I often see such a statemrnt in many media.
But Isn't it baseless? If He is fascist in Comics like Injustice Superman, Entire world in comics will be dominated in one night. He doesn't use his power for his selfish reason, So He is Superman. Why do people make such a statement? Is there some basis that They call Superman fascist? If there is, What basis is it?
So What do you think about it?

[K. Jones]

It's a perplexing notion, and not one I've thought about much, but that's for one very important reason:

People who think Superman is fascistic suffer a complete lack of understanding of anything about who Superman is or what he's all about. They also see his mild authoritarian tendencies as threatening and don't understand what it is that gives him that degree of authority in the first place. (It's trust, BTW. Trust earned through honesty and hard work saving lives and being a hero. As well as a greater humankind pop culture of the 40s, 50s, 60s, slightly less but no less irksome in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, Nows validation of the idea that big brawny manly man fatherly types should be obeyed because they are the man/father/patriarch and are thus the Authority, but frankly that problem invokes the fact that males in general and white males in particular are innately fascistic and while I like the reactionary idea of exploring it, it's a little extreme and kind of a detour from the conversation, so moving on ...)

There are other slight things that have occasionally lent to that fascistic stance, though. Frank Miller straight up depicts his opera-fantasy elseworld Superman as an authoritarian figure in a straw man fascist portrayal meant to make Batman look like an anarchic and rugged individualist. A Conservative wet dream, basically, versus Superman's Liberal nanny state (which is of course secretly run by corrupt and secretive elitist progressives - Old Money Bruce Wayne, totally not an elitist, BTW). Loads of Elseworld stories and in-continuity brainwashy stuff explore the notion of "OH NO, WHAT IF SUPERMAN WAS A TYRANT?!", and his most recent update to his costume (New 52) with its high collar, piping, darker hues, lend him a little more of an aristocratic air than his old-fashioned Working Class everyman costume. (Which is the best argument for why the T-Shirt and Jeans is a superior costume, frankly.)

So yeah - people who call Superman a fascist have only ever actually read Superman in NON-Superman stories.

Clark Kent is all about the live and let live. I mean a guy with super-hearing, speed, and x-ray vision decides to become a crusading social journalist reporter ... with a secret identity. Because he respects individual right to privacy. He is like the complete opposite of a fascist. He's comfortable as a muck-raker because he grew up on a farm ... you know ... raking real muck. He only picks on bullies because his old country dad told him that the best way to stop a bully from bullying is to poke him in the nose. He has zero political ambition.

[Jim Kelly]

I'm reminded of MY DINNER WITH ANDRE. I like this movie a lot--and it inspired one of my favourite episodes of COMMUNITY--but Andre talks to Wally a great deal about THE LITTLE PRINCE (the children's book by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry--another thing I like). But then after talking about it at length, Andre dismisses the book as Fascistic.

Of course, one of the great things about MY DINNER WITH ANDRE is you don't have to believe every word that comes out of Andre's mouth--he might be full of it.

But the thing about THE LITTLE PRINCE is that it's about a little boy and it's written for children. Even if adults like it a lot, too--you can't lose sight of its main purpose. Now all children are Fascistic--when put in adult terms. They want power--because they don't have any--and they look to those things that could give them power. Their fantasies are power fantasies. So when you take a children's story and put it in adult terms, it seems Fascistic. But children aren't really Fascists--and their need to grow and master their world is an important and valuable quality or they will never learn to be independent and fend for themselves.

Superman is a children's story. We can argue about this--but there's an important element in the Superman story which is a child's power fantasy. And that's why kids love Superman. They want to be powerful like him. And for many years there was no issue with that, because the main market for comics was children. So Superman was the perfect character for that market.

Once comics shifted to the fan market--made up of teen-agers and adults--the Superman story was put in adult terms--and just like with THE LITTLE PRINCE, it appears Fascistic. It isn't but it fits so neatly that paradigm that writers don't have to work too hard at making Superman work for adults if they just make out that he's a Fascist.

I blame Alan Moore. While he's an admirable writer, he's got quite the bee in his bonnet about Fascists. It seems like something that the British are preoccupied with--even though most of them weren't alive during the Blitz. Just about any British piece of modern fiction (and non-fiction, too) has a fascination with Fascism. In Alan Moore's comics, Fascism is never far from the main point of the story. The Fascists are the big bad thing that we are all being tempted to become and good ol' Daddy Moore is warning us to stay away.

And because Alan Moore casts a long shadow in the world of adult-oriented super-hero fantasy--everyone models their stories after his. Superman is the perfect Marvelman substitute for a writer who wants to raid the Alan Moore cupboard of tropes.

[K. Jones]

I'm reminded of MY DINNER WITH ANDRE. I like this movie a lot--and it inspired one of my favourite episodes of COMMUNITY--but Andre talks to Wally a great deal about THE LITTLE PRINCE (the children's book by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry--another thing I like). But then after talking about it at length, Andre dismisses the book as Fascistic.

Of course, one of the great things about MY DINNER WITH ANDRE is you don't have to believe every word that comes out of Andre's mouth--he might be full of it.

But the thing about THE LITTLE PRINCE is that it's about a little boy and it's written for children. Even if adults like it a lot, too--you can't lose sight of its main purpose. Now all children are Fascistic--when put in adult terms. They want power--because they don't have any--and they look to those things that could give them power. Their fantasies are power fantasies. So when you take a children's story and put it in adult terms, it seems Fascistic. But children aren't really Fascists--and their need to grow and master their world is an important and valuable quality or they will never learn to be independent and fend for themselves.

Superman is a children's story. We can argue about this--but there's an important element in the Superman story which is a child's power fantasy. And that's why kids love Superman. They want to be powerful like him. And for many years there was no issue with that, because the main market for comics was children. So Superman was the perfect character for that market.

Once comics shifted to the fan market--made up of teen-agers and adults--the Superman story was put in adult terms--and just like with THE LITTLE PRINCE, it appears Fascistic. It isn't but it fits so neatly that paradigm that writers don't have to work too hard at making Superman work for adults if they just make out that he's a Fascist.

I blame Alan Moore. While he's an admirable writer, he's got quite the bee in his bonnet about Fascists. It seems like something that the British are preoccupied with--even though most of them weren't alive during the Blitz. Just about any British piece of modern fiction (and non-fiction, too) has a fascination with Fascism. In Alan Moore's comics, Fascism is never far from the main point of the story. The Fascists are the big bad thing that we are all being tempted to become and good ol' Daddy Moore is warning us to stay away.

And because Alan Moore casts a long shadow in the world of adult-oriented super-hero fantasy--everyone models their stories after his. Superman is the perfect Marvelman substitute for a writer who wants to raid the Alan Moore cupboard of tropes.

Nicely put.

A good exercise is always to just watch Superman: The Motion Picture. Try to imagine Christopher Reeve's Superman as a fascist. I'm not sure it can be done.

[TheNewFiftyForum]

Nicely put.

A good exercise is always to just watch Superman: The Motion Picture. Try to imagine Christopher Reeve's Superman as a fascist. I'm not sure it can be done.

I'd say he has a few superficial fascist trappings going for him if you squint hard enough. A handsome, fit, square jawed and ultra competent white male who comes from a simple background full of good 'ol honest hardworking and equally white people enters into and triumphantly presents those values by way of his ultra competence to a corrupt, waywardly modern (and literal) metropolis full of multicultural and gaudily dressed robbers, pimps and terrorists. And who also, let's not forget, imposes his will on the entire world by using his extreme individual competence to step in and pull the world back in time when things don't turn out to his liking.

Then again, considering how broad and vague the term fascism actually is, it's kind of hard to fairly apply it to a discussion like this.

[DrNewGod]

IMO, it's two things:
1) During ~50-odd years of his history, Superman was written as an ally of the societal status quo, which was white-Anglo-christian, comfortable to imposing its will anywhere in the world, and unreservedly lassie-fair (Darwinian) capitalistic. For anybody that wasn't a white-Anglo-christian capitalist, pursuit of change was often framed as a struggle against fascism. That brings up the second point:
2) Most people that use fascism as a short-hand for something that they don't like don't actually know what it means.

[catman]

I agree with almost of your statement. Indeed Superman is Power Phantasy or fairy tale for children.
But, What I can't agree is that being fairy tale for children automatically means It seems to be fascistic.
As @k. jones said, Superman respect humanity and their law.He can do everything he want to humanity. But He doesn't because He respect humanity. He can make humanity do everything he want by ignoring all law and moral of humanity. but he doesn't because He respect humanity and it's law.
Does such person truly seem to be fascistic?

[Burning Eyes]

Reply to OP.
Because some people listen to, and believe that what Lex Luthor tells them about the Man of Steel, must be true?

[catman]

I think occasionally that People bashing Superman as Fascist are in paraarell with religion hating type Atheist bashing God as Fascistic dictator.
If so, Is Superman some sort of american god?
People may bash Superman as People bash religious icon.
What do you think?

[Ragdoll]

People who have definite Yes or No answer to this question need to give this a second thought. Because Superman both is and isn't a fascist, and it depends entirely on who is writing the book and what message they are trying to get across.

Sometimes we get the rebel Superman who fights all injustice, even the government's (like in current Action Comics, fighting the police).

But then we get the self righteous, my-way-or-the-highway Superman who makes me think that Lex Luthor is right and Clark is our NSA overlord.

This is the case with all superhero comics, to some extend. But Superman's power levels are off the charts compared to the rest so that he is the one people fixate on. But comics have enough writers whose morality I disagree with to the point where I am actively routing for villains in tons of comics. And once in a while, a writer is so good that I am routing for the villains, and I can tell the writer actually wanted the readers to be on the villains side. I love when writers are subtly pro-villain and heavily imply the hero is in the wrong for "saving the day".

[Agent Z]

People who have definite Yes or No answer to this question need to give this a second thought. Because Superman both is and isn't a fascist, and it depends entirely on who is writing the book and what message they are trying to get across.

Sometimes we get the rebel Superman who fights all injustice, even the government's (like in current Action Comics, fighting the police).

But then we get the self righteous, my-way-or-the-highway Superman who makes me think that Lex Luthor is right and Clark is our NSA overlord.

This is the case with all superhero comics, to some extend. But Superman's power levels are off the charts compared to the rest so that he is the one people fixate on. But comics have enough writers whose morality I disagree with to the point where I am actively routing for villains in tons of comics. And once in a while, a writer is so good that I am routing for the villains, and I can tell the writer actually wanted the readers to be on the villains side. I love when writers are subtly pro-villain and heavily imply the hero is in the wrong for "saving the day".

Hardly. Look at what Green Lantern and Flash have been able to pull for years. Contrary to what people claim, Superman is not the most powerful being in the entire DCU.

This is also why stories of Superman going bad tend to annoy me; they rely on the other heroes being useless or just falling in line with him.

[Carabas]

Hardly. Look at what Green Lantern and Flash have been able to pull for years. Contrary to what people claim, Superman is not the most powerful being in the entire DCU.

Yeah, but when you ask somebody who is not a comicbook fan, they'll tell you the Flash can ru really fast and Green Lantern can make big, green boxing gloves, and that's about it.
Public perception does not match fandom perception.
Hell, ask a comicbook fanatic who has never liked the Flash and doesn't read it and he'll tell you he's kinda like Quicksilver but not as cool.

[Carabas]

As Title say, People bash Superman as Fascist. I often see such a statemrnt in many media.
But Isn't it baseless? If He is fascist in Comics like Injustice Superman, Entire world in comics will be dominated in one night. He doesn't use his power for his selfish reason, So He is Superman. Why do people make such a statement? Is there some basis that They call Superman fascist? If there is, What basis is it?
So What do you think about it?

Who are these people you're calling "They"?

Anyway, I can see two root causes: one is Frank Miller and The Dark Knight Returns. The other is the original Squadron Supreme. Those two really got the evil Superman train started.

By the way, it is completely possible for Superman to become a dictator and not doing it for even remotely selfish reasons.

[Jim Kelly]

I don't know if it was on an conscious or unconscious level, but when Siegel and Shuster created Superman they offered an alternative to the Ubermensch that the Nazis conceived in their misreading of Nietzsche. The Fascist Superman is the kind who divides people into the strong and the weak and says that all that the weak deserve is to be dominated and oppressed by the strong and that they must serve the Superman or die.

This Fascist was the first kind of Superman that Siegel and Superman created in their original story, as a villain. But when they reinvented Superman, they made him one with the people and their servant, rather than their master. And with the coming war, Siegel and Shuster's Superman stood as a contrary argument to the Nazi's proposition.

That's why it's so revolting to see writers turn Superman into the Fascist--to take the counter-argument and make it into the argument for the Ubermensch over the common man. It's vile and putrid and should not be tolerated. When writers do this, they're disrespecting everything that Siegel and Shuster believed and invested their life-blood in creating.

[catman]

let's not forget, imposes his will on the entire world by using his extreme individual competence to step in and pull the world back in time when things don't turn out to his liking.

If Superman is such a person, Isn't DC universe dominated by him?
It is Ultraman or some Else world Superman like Injustice, Isn't it?
Do you think that Superman is violent fascist?

Who are these people you're calling "They"?

Anyway, I can see two root causes: one is Frank Miller and The Dark Knight Returns. The other is the original Squadron Supreme. Those two really got the evil Superman train started.

By the way, it is completely possible for Superman to become a dictator and not doing it for even remotely selfish reasons.

I have seen people in many forum or twitter or blog who said that Superman is some sort of fascist. So I am calling "they".
As for DKR, It is Elseworld and Frank Miller disrespected Superman to make Batman "badass". As for Squadron Supreme, Hyperion is not even Superman.
And at last, Superman doesn't do it because He respects humanity. It has been written in many stories.
Only Some of Elseworld Superman like Red Son did it.