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  1. #46
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    You are correct on both count, sir.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    IMO, it's two things:
    1) During ~50-odd years of his history, Superman was written as an ally of the societal status quo, which was white-Anglo-christian, comfortable to imposing its will anywhere in the world, and unreservedly lassie-fair (Darwinian) capitalistic. For anybody that wasn't a white-Anglo-christian capitalist, pursuit of change was often framed as a struggle against fascism. That brings up the second point:
    2) Most people that use fascism as a short-hand for something that they don't like don't actually know what it means.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    As Title say, People bash Superman as Fascist. I often see such a statemrnt in many media.
    But Isn't it baseless? If He is fascist in Comics like Injustice Superman, Entire world in comics will be dominated in one night. He doesn't use his power for his selfish reason, So He is Superman. Why do people make such a statement? Is there some basis that They call Superman fascist? If there is, What basis is it?
    So What do you think about it?
    by comics as TDKR, KC, RS, injustice, etc

    P.D: in RS is a communist

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by XMLXXs Man View Post
    It sounds to me like this idea of Superman being a fascist figure is afterburn of Alan Moore's personal fears and obsessions, disconnected from any actual facts (which sounds like Alan Moore). Superman is by no means a Nitzchean ubermensch. The character grew up in Kansas!
    Straightforward, patriotic, wholesome, large, muscular individuals that grow up in rural areas and are emblematic of the simplicity and purity of the countryside fall within the mainstream iconography of fascism, as it happens

    That is not, however, to say that Superman was conceived as a fascist character or is innately fascist, that would be absurd - it's simply that a vastly powerful being who is unaccountable to a higher authority can lead to stories in which (a) that individual is a humble servant of humanity or (b) that individual carries with him much more sinister overtones. It's inevitable, really, that "sinister Superman" is going to crop up as a story trope on occasion - in the same way as the trope of Bruce Wayne being an oddball billionaire who gets his kicks from beating up the socially marginalised and the mentally ill is always going to re-emerge from time to time.

    You can't blame, say, Alan Moore and Garth Ennis for that, although I guess you could blame the changes to comicbook culture in the 1980s. When comics started to explore what might be the ramifications of some of their fictional universes (rightly or wrongly) these kind of ideas were always going to emerge - and you'd have lost a great many stories you value if they hadn't.

  4. #49
    Ultimate Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    I've seen Superman be a bully in enough stories, but fascist? I can't really think of any. Advertisements for the very us-vs-them Superman "code" and that sort of clubhouse stuff, maybe, but in stories? Nah.

    Many people want fascist to mean good-looking-and-in-tight-handsome-clothes or very-powerful, though.

    [Edit: KC's Supes may as well count. Crazy blame-the-other-guys, us-vs-them, prison-camp-building tinplated dictator with his special friends and lackeys. But he changes his mind by the end, so... good for him?]

    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    It could be argued that every character ever written by Frank Miller is fascist to some degree. He was less fascist than Batman anyway.
    Neither of those characters have ever been fascist under Miller. Not even a bit. Anarchists. Populists. Authoritarian, perhaps, in Superman's case, though not much.

    I can't really think of any non-villain characters of Miller's I would categorize as fascist (except maaaaaaaybe some in 300). Most of his protagonists like to walk their own roads too much, and not enough adherence to the law or social expectations.
    Patsy Walker on TV! Patsy Walker in new comics! Patsy Walker in your brain! And Jessica Jones is the new Nancy! (Oh, and read the Comics Cube.)

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    As Title say, People bash Superman as Fascist. I often see such a statemrnt in many media.
    But Isn't it baseless? If He is fascist in Comics like Injustice Superman, Entire world in comics will be dominated in one night. He doesn't use his power for his selfish reason, So He is Superman. Why do people make such a statement? Is there some basis that They call Superman fascist? If there is, What basis is it?
    So What do you think about it?
    I think a lot of the general public has an image of Superman as the defender of Truth [trademarked and copyrighted by a specific group who knows absolutely what Truth with a capitol T is], Justice [same notation] and the American Way. I think that, for a lot of people, that last conjures images of Superman posing in front of the flag, possibly taking orders from the President (possibly Reagan if they are picturing the Chris Reeve Superman) and basically "My country, right or wrong."

    That may all be true of some versions of Superman [cough Frank Miller's cough] but I think that most portrayals go far deeper than that and are far different than that. But I do think that, for a lot of people, those are the sorts of images that are conjured up when they think of Superman, they see him as some sort of defender of the status quo who who will not break American law and answers to American authority figures.

  6. #51
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    People accuse Superman (among loads of other superheroes) as being fascist because there's this pretentious attempt at imposing a political ideology into children's wish fulfilment fantasy fiction where it doesn't belong. And this gets exacerbated by "deconstruction" comics like Watchmen, Squadron Supreme, etc. I mean yeah sure, there is a creepy subtext about superheroes and fascism, but decades of cynical writers who think they're clever because they bring this subtext to the forefront is part of what's made superhero comics unreadable for me.
    Last edited by Kid A; 09-26-2015 at 06:58 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid A View Post
    People accuse Superman (among loads of other superheroes) as being fascist because there's this pretentious attempt at imposing a political ideology into children's wish fulfilment fantasy fiction where it doesn't belong.
    And it's been doing that since the very first Superman story ever written.

  8. #53
    Ultimate Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    And it's been doing that since the very first Superman story ever written.
    There's nothing political about a farmboy moving to a city, becoming a hard-hitting journalist, and punching the hell out of slumlords, wife beaters, and corrupt scientists.
    Patsy Walker on TV! Patsy Walker in new comics! Patsy Walker in your brain! And Jessica Jones is the new Nancy! (Oh, and read the Comics Cube.)

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by t hedge coke View Post
    There's nothing political about a farmboy moving to a city, becoming a hard-hitting journalist, and punching the hell out of slumlords, wife beaters, and corrupt scientists.
    so much depends
    upon

    a red wheel
    barrow

    glazed with rain
    water

    beside the white
    chickens

    However--so far as I can see--there's nothing to indicate that Clark Kent is a farmboy, when he first appears on the scene. The origin story in SUPERMAN No. 1 (1939) doesn't show a farm and one panel even shows the boy bounding over skyscrapers. It remains pretty much that way for the next ten years. The stories of Superboy seem to be happening in a small town or perhaps a suburb of Metropolis.

    I imagine Clark Kent as being a drifter through most of the '30s--perhaps changing his face and hair colour a few times. Possibly working with the circus for awhile (where he got the idea for his Superman circus costume). On the breadlines with men and women out of work and hungry. Riding the rails and warming himself over a fire in the hobo camps. All of this most likely influences Clark when he finally decides to put down roots in a major city and begin his campaign against the oppressor.
    "We will meet again."

  10. #55
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    PWNED


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