Why do People bash Superman as Fascist?

[Ishmael]

But, Isn't Superman's public image is that of Silver Age or Post Crisis who is good-hearted boyscout?
I don't think that Non comic reader know well about DKR Superman.

Being a good hearted boy scout is not the same as being a fascist. Miller's the one who made that link between the two (i.e. Superman is naïve and idealistic, and the government took advantage of that).

Given how Miller's take on Batman became THE portrayal of him that most writers have followed since it doesn't matter whether the average joe has heard of DKR. After 30 years or so of setting the tone for what Batman "should be" like, Miller's interpretation has pretty much become the definitive one -- Batman was certainly different prior to DKR -- and whether non-fans or even passing fans realize this fact or not is moot.

The same holds for Superman. DKR was the work that made them antagonistic toward one another -- broke their friendship and made them rivals -- and that formula has persisted ever since. It's also the work that, as I mentioned, made the link between Superman's boy scout attitude and being a stooge for the government. Whether the average person or fan realizes this explicitly is less significant than the fact that what Miller did was repeated by other writers so that, 30 years later, it's taken to be "canon" by many -- but not all -- readers.

The fact that the OP doesn't know where this take on Superman came from -- and the idea of Superman being a fascist was NEVER found prior to DKR -- says a lot (no offense to him/her). Miller ruined both characters in many ways, imo.

[Michael P]

Because people are stupid.

[catman]

Being a good hearted boy scout is not the same as being a fascist. Miller's the one who made that link between the two (i.e. Superman is naïve and idealistic, and the government took advantage of that).

Given how Miller's take on Batman became THE portrayal of him that most writers have followed since it doesn't matter whether the average joe has heard of DKR. After 30 years or so of setting the tone for what Batman "should be" like, Miller's interpretation has pretty much become the definitive one -- Batman was certainly different prior to DKR -- and whether non-fans or even passing fans realize this fact or not is moot.

The same holds for Superman. DKR was the work that made them antagonistic toward one another -- broke their friendship and made them rivals -- and that formula has persisted ever since. It's also the work that, as I mentioned, made the link between Superman's boy scout attitude and being a stooge for the government. Whether the average person or fan realizes this explicitly is less significant than the fact that what Miller did was repeated by other writers so that, 30 years later, it's taken to be "canon" by many -- but not all -- readers.

The fact that the OP doesn't know where this take on Superman came from -- and the idea of Superman being a fascist was NEVER found prior to DKR -- says a lot (no offense to him/her). Miller ruined both characters in many ways, imo.

I see.
But Does DKR influence even Non-Comic Reader?
I think that Non Comic Reader know only Public Image Superman.
Off course DKR and other Evil Superman Rip off around many media may influence them though.

[Ishmael]

I see.
But Does DKR influence even Non-Comic Reader?

I think so. Given how extensive the reinterpretation of both characters was in light of DKR, then it stands to reason that the "public image Superman" will begin to exhibit traits associated with Miller's portrayal. The fact that DKR is providing the backdrop for the Batman v Superman -- and that they've indicated they want less Superman and more Batman -- seems to indicate how the perception of Superman has shifted for the worse, and how that perception has been affected by DKR (even before this latest movie).

Again, I can't recall any instances of Superman being portrayed as a fascist or stooge for the government prior to DKR. And given that DKR is often credited with changing the whole genre of comics as literature -- along with Watchmen -- then I think it's plausible to say that it's had an effect on how Superman is regarded by a lot of people, reader and non-reader alike.

[Lee Stone]

My idea of Superman is that he's an alien with a high moral compass that does what he would expect any human to do if they had his abilities. Thus, leading by example and defending those who can't defend themselves.
In other words, every action he takes, he's always thinking (with his super-fast thoughts) about the message he's sending.
If kids, or adults even, see Superman do something then that's what they should do.
He's not just any man, he's Superman, after all.

I know it sounds old fashioned... but that's how I see him.

[catman]

I think so. Given how extensive the reinterpretation of both characters was in light of DKR, then it stands to reason that the "public image Superman" will begin to exhibit traits associated with Miller's portrayal. The fact that DKR is providing the backdrop for the Batman v Superman -- and that they've indicated they want less Superman and more Batman -- seems to indicate how the perception of Superman has shifted for the worse, and how that perception has been affected by DKR (even before this latest movie).

Again, I can't recall any instances of Superman being portrayed as a fascist or stooge for the government prior to DKR. And given that DKR is often credited with changing the whole genre of comics as literature -- along with Watchmen -- then I think it's plausible to say that it's had an effect on how Superman is regarded by a lot of people, reader and non-reader alike.

I am not American. So I don't know about how DKR and Watchmen affect Non-Comic Reader(Off course I know about how they affected comic book industry and comic reader).
But I understand your opinion. Even if They don't affect non comic book reader directly, They will affect even Non Comic Reader through many movie, Cartoon, Game, etc that They affected. In fact, Man of Steel and BvS are one of them.
But, In DKR, Isn't Batman far more fascistic than Superman?

[AlexanderLuthor]

They don't. It's a stupid thing to say. The whole point of the character is exactly the opposite. That's why two Jewish kids in the 30's made him up

[catman]

They don't. It's a stupid thing to say. The whole point of the character is exactly the opposite. That's why two Jewish kids in the 30's made him up

I agree.
He was born as Champion of the oppressed.
Some critic said that Superman originated from Clansmen which is novel and said to be that it originated from KKK, So Superman is decendant of KKK. And He bashed Superman as fascist. (His true intention seems to bash writer of Superman in these day thnugh)
It is bullshit. In the first place, It is baseless that Superman originated from Clansmen. Superman originated from Gladiator of Philip Wylie and Flash gordon and many mythical hero like Hercules or Samson.

[Prime]

I agree.
He was born as Champion of the oppressed.
Some critic said that Superman originated from Clansmen which is novel and said to be that it originated from KKK, So Superman is decendant of KKK. And He bashed Superman as fascist. (His true intention seems to bash writer of Superman in these day thnugh)
It is bullshit. In the first place, It is baseless that Superman originated from Clansmen. Superman originated from Gladiator of Philip Wylie and Flash gordon and many mythical hero like Hercules or Samson.

Didnt Superman beat the KKK once? In comics and in real life.

[JackDaw]

P

They don't. It's a stupid thing to say. The whole point of the character is exactly the opposite. That's why two Jewish kids in the 30's made him up

Precisely.

In many years of reading papers, watching TV, listening to the radio, talking to people ,etc I've never seen anybody seriously proposing idea that Superman is a fascist.

I'm sure if I made a determined search I'd find some such material...much as I'd find some arguing that moon is made of green cheese.

But idea that it's anything but rare, strikes me as risible. Always happy to be proven wrong: would be happy to see specific references when idea was put forward by credible journalists, philosophers, etc.

[Jim Kelly]

Can't think of a direct reference off the top of my head--but I'm kinda sure the Superman as Fascist point has been made.

Not directly related to Superman, but many years ago now I was in a bookstore and happened to find a book of essays on Alan Moore stories. I forget now who was the author, but I flipped through the book and read this guy's analysis of some Moore stories I had read. One in particular I remember was about a Tom Strong story and the essayist pointed out all the symbolism and the subtext (relevant to Fascism) in this story.

Totally ruined Tom Strong for me. It was pretty clear from the writer's analysis that Moore had put this stuff intentionally in there--it wasn't just the essayist making up his own theories like with some people regarding Superman. I didn't want to know all the meaning behind what Alan Moore had created--so I didn't buy the book. There are some writers where it's fun to know their underlying purpose in what they write--but for me, Alan Moore isn't one of those. I'd rather just stick to the surface. But opening that book was like opening a door that can't be closed--so now I can't feel the same way about Moore as I used to.

[Den]

Didnt Superman beat the KKK once? In comics and in real life.

I think it was the Superman radio show

Yup. It was. Here is a little more on it

[ed2962]

I think Fredrick Werthem criticized Superman as being fascist while at the same time he called Bats/Robin and WW gay fantasies. But I don't think the average person thinks of Supes that way. There are folks who think that superheroes in general are fascistic, because of the whole imposing your will on others by force thing, but they wouldn't single out Superman.

[Last Son]

From the sound of it, to these people, there's no way Superman and superheroes in general can't be fascist. These people hate power and any and all applications of it, apparently. Just like any and all applications of capitalism are evil(while I'm sure they benefit plenty from it). I consider myself to be liberal but Jesus some people really go overboard, don't they? There's no insidious message(at least for the most part) in superhero comics. It's just some guys thought "wouldn't it be cool if there was someone who could fly/shoot lasers out of their eyes/lift mountains and used those powers to HELP?". It's harmless fantasy. We're all aware that power doesn't solve everything, but within the context of comics, superheroes are there to do the impossible, to solve problems we either have extreme difficulty with in the real world(like world hunger) or flat out can't deal with(the end of the world). I'd like to think it comes from the goodness in people that they look up to people who can perform miracles and do so to help mankind. But these cynical overthinkers have to crap all over everything that makes people happy and actually inspires positive attitudes, not a lust for violence and fascism.

Not to mention, this world benefits from supermen. Where would we be without the near superhuman intellects of men like Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking? Intelligence is a form of power, I'm sorry to disappoint. To fear power is to fear nature.

[XMLXXs Man]

It sounds to me like this idea of Superman being a fascist figure is afterburn of Alan Moore's personal fears and obsessions, disconnected from any actual facts (which sounds like Alan Moore). Superman is by no means a Nitzchean ubermensch. The character grew up in Kansas! He's always been pretty patriotic, and he's certainly pro-democracy. He's a professional journalist, so he's a supporter of the 1st Amendment. A few years back he defended the free-speech rights of a Rush-Limbaugh-esque supporting character. So I second the earlier comment -- a lot of people say that fascist thing out of stupidity. I'll add that I think those people are projecting their own fear and hatred of the USA /onto/ Superman, and at the same time willfully ignoring everythin real about the character that disproves their desire to turn him into a malignant political symbol.