Any Actual "Bruce Wayne is a Complete Fabrication, Batman is all that's real" Stories?

[CaptCleghorn]

This is from Neil Gaiman's Wake story in Sandman (yeah, it's Vertigo, so what?) Superman is Clark, Batman is Batman, and MM is just, well, MM. Bruce as the real mask exhibit #75.

[thwhtGuardian]

Also Ed Brubaker, four issues later, the conclusion of that story arc:

Yup, everybody loves the image of him proclaiming, "Bruce Wayne, no more!" but they always seem to forget the end of the story.

[Güicho]

Cause in the end, this supposed happy well adjusted family(clone) raising masked fellow, is declaring:
This; = psychologically real Bruce Wayne.
What he's thinking, is they are now one and the same.

Yet , who shows up in public? He can't ever acknowledge the ^ above.
Hence the mask/act he puts on as Bruce Wayne.

By comparison the masked hero who only has one face ie doesn't wear a separate recognizable public mask, is the Lone Ranger. Who in essence "killed"* his public Bruce Wayne side.
There is no pretense of keeping that persona alive. *He's allowed the world to believe he died.
His only "real" face to the public (even to those who once knew him) is one; The Lone Ranger. There is no other.

*Also Johnston (C.K.M. Scanlon) Mcculley's The Bat fits this MO.
And the Count of Montecristo (until the end)

The argument then becomes, well then who is the guy not wearing a mask, who hangs out eating popcorn with the clones.
Is that a mask? Is he pretending? Is it a third persona?



Thing is everyone ^there Alfred, the clones, all know what he's hiding in the basement while he's eating popcorn and watching Zorro above.
So here, (knowing what's in the secret basement) they are all shrouded under the same Batman guise .
They all share the Basement.
Yet the mask they conjointly put to the public, has no (bat filled) basement.

[Carabas]

You lost me at clones. What clones?

[Kurtzberg]

You lost me at clones. What clones?

Dick, Damian and Tim. They are Bruce clones, black haired and blue eyed, square jawed mini Bruces. All the Robins are Bruce clones, except for that period where Jason was a redhead who had to dye his hair black to fit the profile.

[phantom1592]

I don't think a sane version has ever really existed, every version of Batman I can think of revolves around the fact Bruce was still to some degree stuck in that alleyway with his parents. I mean Bruce is, however you look at it, at least a little bit nuts.

My absolute favorite version of Batman was the Blue/grey/yellow oval version. It was the version that had found Joe Chill and had moved past 'vengeance'. His mission was not 'Every night I go out to avenge my parents...' It was 'I go out every night to make sure that doesn't happen to anyone ELSE's parents!' He adopted Robins out of compassion not 'recruiting for a war.' His costume was a costume... not a uniform.

He was quite sane by any definition.

Outside of a superhero universe, that's all up for grabs. The Michael Keaton version seemed to be fighting desperately to appear normal and cool at all times, when, basically, he'd rather be very, very alone and wrapped in a costume. That Batman could become agoraphobic, he was incredibly violent without "justifiable" provocation, and he had a basic inability to read other's emotions or social graces. And, he still made it through alright, really.

Actually, I've always seen Keaton's to be the MOST sane of them all. He was in reality the PERFECT Batman.

Much like Superman... Batman AND Bruce Wayne are masks. Superman and Clark Kent are also both masks. When in civilian identity they bumbling or awkward or 'drunk'... and when in costume they either are TOO perfect or go with the gravel voice or whatever... Each identity is a show for either civilians or criminals.

The REAL Bruce Wayne is the one hanging out at the mansion and watching tv with the kids or helping Robin with his homework. Neither the Criminal world OR the business world ever get a glimpse of the REAL Bruce Wayne.

That's what I LOVED about Keaton's version. I KNOW that the comics wanted Batman on the page as much as possible... but a grown man in a costume sitting in his basement... has issues. He's all alone, nobody around... but still in costume?? I hate that. Keaton in a turtleneck poring over the criminal files and watching Joker's newscasts in front of the Batcomputer... THAT was a perfect interpretation. No masks... no shows... Just doing the detective work.

[thwhtGuardian]

Dick, Damian and Tim. They are Bruce clones, black haired and blue eyed, square jawed mini Bruces. All the Robins are Bruce clones, except for that period where Jason was a redhead who had to dye his hair black to fit the profile.

On a very superficial level? Sure. But anything more than just glancing at a few images would show that they are all unique characters.

[Kurtzberg]

On a very superficial level? Sure. But anything more than just glancing at a few images would show that they are all unique characters.

Yeah... and? Of course it's on a superficial level. Comics are largely a visual medium and the fact all the Robins actually look like youg version of Bruce, not just his biological son, does tend to stand out, to the point people use the term clones jokingly.

[Jim Kelly]

I can't buy into the idea at all, except as a poetic expression. And maybe that's where the chasm of misunderstanding occurs between those who say Bruce Wayne isn't real and myself who thinks that's an illogical statement other than as a figurative remark.

But I took arts courses in university, so I'm used to talking about metaphor, simile, figurative language vs literal language, etc. And those on the other side of the metaphorical chasm are used to using blunt, terse phrases and think that poetic talk is for wusses.

Yet I don't see how you can talk about the idea without using artsy-fartsy ideas. You have to talk about persona and id and existential definitions of identity. If you just stick to the facts, Bruce Wayne has a birth certificate, he grew up, went to school. He has relationships. That's his real name. He goes to the doctor, has lawyers. He's real.

Batman is at best a psychological construct that Bruce has created. So sure, Batman is a facet of Bruce Wayne. And sure when Bruce goes out in society he wears one mask, when he beats up crooks he wears another mask. When Bruce as Batman attends Justice League meetings--I hope that he doesn't show the same bullying attitude to his fellow JLAers that he shows to murderers and thugs.

Am I supposed to believe that when little Bruce Wayne was a baby in a crib, he wasn't really Bruce Wayne--that was just a mask? The little baby in the crib, is baby Batman? This is where my mind goes when people say that Bruce is not real--I just find the idea too absurd.

"One man in his time plays many parts," as Shakespeare put it and that poetic expression seems most apt to me.

--------

All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then, the whining school-boy with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then, a soldier,
Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden, and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then, the justice,
In fair round belly, with a good capon lined,
With eyes severe, and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws, and modern instances,
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,

Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

[ImprobableQuestion]

Can't speak for comics, but in the DCAU it's fairly clear that Bruce Wayne is the less genuine persona of the two (made most evident by the change in Kevin Conroy's voice: his Bruce is so much more put-on sounding, and he always uses his Batman voice with Alfred or Dick. That would be a cool facet to explore in a live action movie). Most episodes show him in costume whenever he's in the Batcave, whether it's sitting at the computer or getting ready to go on patrol.

Batman Beyond even implied that he calls himself "Batman" internally.

I don't think this done to suggest that DCAU Bruce is a fabrication, just that normal doesn't come naturally to him, and that (as is often a thread in the lore) he can't be Batman 24/7.

[Frontier]

I remember interviews for Beware the Batman mentioning that Anthony Ruivivar had to come up with three different voices for Bruce, including his public playboy billionaire voice, his internal voice that he speaks in private with allies who know his secret, and his Batman voice.

I think the intention was that he internal voice was pretty much the real Bruce, not an affectation or guise in the same way the playboy billionaire voice is, and it wasn't really that different from his Batman voice.

[phantom1592]

Am I supposed to believe that when little Bruce Wayne was a baby in a crib, he wasn't really Bruce Wayne--that was just a mask? The little baby in the crib, is baby Batman? This is where my mind goes when people say that Bruce is not real--I just find the idea too absurd.

While I do agree with you... it bears pointing out that I've never heard anyone claim that there was no Baby bruce or that he was batman from birth.

The going claim is that the 'real' Bruce Wayne died that night with his family. So yeah, happy giddy little boy bruce was totally a thing by everyone's assumption

[Carabas]

Can't speak for comics, but in the DCAU it's fairly clear that Bruce Wayne is the less genuine persona of the two (made most evident by the change in Kevin Conroy's voice: his Bruce is so much more put-on sounding, and he always uses his Batman voice with Alfred or Dick. That would be a cool facet to explore in a live action movie). Most episodes show him in costume whenever he's in the Batcave, whether it's sitting at the computer or getting ready to go on patrol.

Batman Beyond even implied that he calls himself "Batman" internally.

See, this is why I don't understand people who find Bruce Timm and Paul Dini to be among the best Batman writers ever, and that they really get the character.

And nothing is implied in Batman Beyond. It is very unambiguously, directly pointed out

[Jim Kelly]

While I do agree with you... it bears pointing out that I've never heard anyone claim that there was no Baby bruce or that he was batman from birth.

The going claim is that the 'real' Bruce Wayne died that night with his family. So yeah, happy giddy little boy bruce was totally a thing by everyone's assumption

Yeah but that requires a complex conversation about human psychology, whereas you get folks who talk in catchphrases. I accept the idea that "Bruce became Batman" on the day his parents died--but only as an epigram. You really have to unpack that to get at what it truly means.

Unfortunately, too many people take the epigram as the literal truth. It feels true, but what we really mean is that Bruce was psychologically changed at that moment--and it is a moment that will stay in his mind for the rest of his life. Many of us have those moments, too--we don't need to make up new names for ourselves--but we recognize the person we were before was different from the person we are now.

The death of his parents doesn't mean we have to call Bruce Wayne something else--and that, that was done to Bruce. It's good to remember that, rather than denying that the boy still exists beneath the mask. What we humans do is we carry around that moment continually--replaying the scene over and over again. In some part of our psyche, we keep alive the person that we were before and re-live the moment that that person suffered this blow. Bruce Wayne has to keep doing that to himself in order to keep assuming the role of Batman.

But Wayne doesn't come up with the Batman name until years later. So it's not factually true that he becomes Batman in that moment. What we're trying to do with our inexact language is get at the complex of feelings that Batman represents. So it's just easy shorthand to call that Batman.

The thing is, if we talk in this shorthand all the time, we start to think something that's a figurative truth is a literal truth. And, as Wittgenstein discovered, using language in this way is a malady that infects our philosophy.

[Carabas]

You know, I can sort of get that a still angry, early 20s Bruce Wayne in the first years of his career as Batman could go all creature of the night, I AM Batman, Bruce Wayne is just a mask.

But then he gets older, mellows out a bit, works through some of his traumas, starts being written by Denny O'Neil or Grant Morrison, and looks back and thinks about what a thick jackass he used to be when he was young.