Is it safe to say that the NU52 Bat Universe is now separate from the Pre-52?

[The Nuke]

Just asking. After 4 years, and after all the talk of at the start about this being the same Batman U with some minor changes, it now seems as far apart from the man and the universe we knew in the Pre-52.

There have been call backs, some of which you have to wonder how they even still work given the changes, but there have been references to past events. Also known as fan service. Still, is this the same Universe where No Man's Land, Knightfall, or lets say 90 percent of the Pre-52 era stuff happened? Doesn't seem like it. Apparently a lot is hidden behind the concept, "It happened, but differently," which is stupid to me, but seems to be the case. IT either happened or didn't.


Reason I ask, is because writers and artist of these books still talk as if this is the same man from the pre-52, as well as fans. Attempts made to try to fit the stuff when it's becoming less and less possible with all this 5 years stuff. Not to mention the reconning of Steph and possibly even Cassandra.

IT's just weird seeing people still talk about this current Batman that way when all that history for this character is gone, or at least most of it rather.

[Odd Rödney]

It's hard to say. Stuff like this is difficult and even sometimes infuriating. And DC do it pretty often. Crisis this, crisis that. I tire of DC's constant reboots honestly.

I find the best thing to do is just read runs you like. Try to avoid focusing on continuity maybe. Might be easier said than done though.

[dan12456]

Yeah agreed. It's impossible to tell so it's better to just ignore continuity imo. Somethings have to have happened, Morrison's epic for instance as Dick was Batman and Batman incorporated was a continuation. Yet stuff doesn't line up with that era of bat comics since Steph was never batgirl etc. So it just doesn't make sense and never will.

[twiztor]

Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson are still the same characters. Everyone else has changed.

[JBatmanFan05]

Is it safe to say that the NU52 Bat Universe is now separate from the Pre-52?

No. You can say it, but not safely.

The question is IRRELEVANT to me personally. I don't care what DC or its writers think anymore (I used to care some pre-FP). I treat Snyder's Batman run (I ignore Zero Year) as a continuation of pre-FP Batman. Grant Morrison carried Batman over and I'm doing it too.

[ispacehead]

Just asking. After 4 years, and after all the talk of at the start about this being the same Batman U with some minor changes, it now seems as far apart from the man and the universe we knew in the Pre-52.

The two do not correlate for me at all.

Like the difference between BTAS and The Batman.

Might look like a duck and walk like a duck and quack like a duck, but it ain't no duck.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Just asking. After 4 years, and after all the talk of at the start about this being the same Batman U with some minor changes, it now seems as far apart from the man and the universe we knew in the Pre-52.

There have been call backs, some of which you have to wonder how they even still work given the changes, but there have been references to past events. Also known as fan service. Still, is this the same Universe where No Man's Land, Knightfall, or lets say 90 percent of the Pre-52 era stuff happened? Doesn't seem like it. Apparently a lot is hidden behind the concept, "It happened, but differently," which is fucking stupid to me, but seems to be the case. IT either happened or didn't.


Reason I ask, is because writers and artist of these books still talk as if this is the same man from the pre-52, as well as fans. Attempts made to try to fit the stuff when it's becoming less and less possible with all this 5 years stuff. Not to mention the reconning of Steph and possibly even Cassandra.

IT's just weird seeing people still talk about this current Batman that way when all that history for this character is gone, or at least most of it rather.

When the N52 started they tried to past it like a a continuation of the old universe but over the time they have been stealthly adding some stuff and retconning other so there's no way they are the same universe anymore. Batman Incorporated is hardly a solid reference since it existed on its own pocket of continuity not dthat different to how Harley's title relates to the rest of the DCU.

[JBatmanFan05]

Apparently a lot is hidden behind the concept, "It happened, but differently," which is fucking stupid to me, but seems to be the case. IT either happened or didn't.

I agree, but I like it (as a consolation prize). That's whole idea of "it happened but differently"....it did happen and didn't happen (totally) like that old story (that DC still wants you to buy and read!). For OCD types, that may be a problem, but...that's that.

Inc, for example, definitely happened, but Black Bat Cass and Steph weren't there. NML happened, but again, no Batgirl Cassandra. I hate those changes, but since I don't care what DC thinks and keep my own canon....not the end of the world.

[Sacred Knight]

They've done a better job at distinguishing it than they did at first by stupidly not concretely rebooting it, especially after Zero Year. But there's still some scattered inconsistencies that remain.

[PurpleGlovez]

I'm not convinced that No Man's Land happened post-Flashpoint, since to my knowledge it has never even been remotely alluded to and seems to have been usurped by Zero Year (like when Jim mentions Zero Year in Batman Incorporated #13.)

I'm of two minds on the whole thing; on one hand, Batman is Batman no matter where you look, but on the other, yes, we are clearly in a new continuity now with all the good and bad that entails.

[JBatmanFan05]

Snyder in 2011 was assuring fans left and right that all these stories still happened. He listed stories once and NML was among them. All this stuff is hard to find via Google and a lot was said via Twitter. And with continuity being so hard to piece together to begin with, I never just limit canon to story references.

Snyder: I'm very grateful for DC for just giving us the chance to do the stories that we'd love to do with characters, and for some superheroes it's been exciting for the creators to get to make big changes to them. It's all out of making the best story for the character possible. For us, on Batman, it didn't really mean changing a tremendous amount you know, if you love the character and you love the story of his history and his rich past, and all the things that have been there, those things are largely intact. He's not radically altered. He is the classic tough Bruce Wayne that you know and love with all the things that you know about his history still standing. When it comes to other characters in the DCU, creators have done really exciting things with them so for us when it comes to what it feels like to relaunch the character, on the one hand, when you think about the relaunch in the abstract, it's exciting and intimidating and thrilling and all those things, but at the end of the day, when I think about the story we're telling, it's inspiring because it's the story we've wanted to tell for Batman for a while, you know with Bruce Wayne, so I feel really just thrilled to get it out there in the world and see what people think of it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bryan-..._b_972366.html

Snyder: Yes, and I understand that there's a lot of confusion and excitement about what the shape of Gotham is going to be, in terms of the cast. I know there are a lot of wild rumors out there, because we're trying not to spoil things that are coming in story.

But one thing I can definitely say is that the stuff you've loved about Batman over the years is still there. We're not just taking away things that people have liked from the past so that they haven't existed or don't matter. That isn't the mission at all here.

If there are elements of the Batman world and Batman history you love, I can tell you with confidence that those things are still there and still did happen. And they are part of the mythology of Batman as we're using it here.

http://www.newsarama.com/7771-scott-...lly-isn-t.html

I believe DC did & mostly still does hold the opinion that the Bat franchise's sales didn't warrant a full reboot and they agreed with Snyder about everything largely (not completely) in tact.

[taylortexas]

I don't think anyone really has a concrete answer to that. If the answer is yes, this Batman is separate; then the mentions of stuff like Bane breaking his back or Barbara being confined to a chair or the inclusion of Morrison's run make that sort of confusing. If the answer is no, they're not separate; then you have things like Zero Year contradicting Year One or the re-introduction of characters like Stephanie Brown and eventually Cassandra Cain. It wasn't well planned and I imagine would be perplexing to someone trying to read Batman for the very first time.

[The Nuke]

Well according to this post convergence thing "EVERYTHING HAPPENS." Which to me is just as confusing.

Because if there is a pre-52 world still out there, which we are given hints that it is and isn't. Then no worries, because it would seem that the 52 world is its own world. However, at the same time we are given this page where it looks like the Pre-52 world evolved into the Nu52 world.

So which is it, because if it evolved then all those stories couldn't have happened in that world.

HOWEVER, it probably means that all those stories happened, but now are part of their own worlds. WHICH IS DUMB AS ****!!! Basically NML on it's own world, Year one own world, Knightfall own world. HEll, maybe some stuff happened on the same world. Still it's like they took the history an scattered it to the four winds, thinking it would make sense and give everyone what they wanted. When for a lot of people I think what they wanted was the reassurance that the Pre-52 world existed.

[Kingcrimsonprog]

The New52 world is its own world in some issues, and writers forget that in some issues. There wasn't a concrete continuity bible from the outset and noone was punished for breaking the reboot rule. Noone edited the writer's work to remove reboot mistakes.

Also, Morrison's Inc run should've been released pre-52 and serve as the ending to the pre52 universe. The last issue should've been the last ever issue of the pre-52 universe.

The first issue of the New 52 should've been Zero Year.

They should've been brave and confident and assertive and just said this is the Ultimate Universe version of Batman, its totally different but trust us. If sales tanked they could've went back to pre-52 and just said "well never mind all that it was just an alternative universe" ...kind of what Earth One Batman is, or the Gotham TV show.

Have you ever read Ultimate Spiderman, and the way they did The Clone Saga again, but more succinctly and in the new universe?

The way I look at it now is that Zero Year is the start of the new 52, all other Snyder stories are a massive flash forward, and we're waiting for the Ultimate Universe succinct new universe retelling of all the referenced stories like Killing Joke, A Death In The Family, The Cult, Knightfall, Cataclysm etc.


Hopefully when Snyder is done with his massive flash forward stories, someone will come in and fill in the gaps between Zero Year and 'Owls.

[byrd156]

It was different right from the beginning.