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  1. #16
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    I seem to recall Snyder previously saying that he had this idea that Year One was still canon when the New 52 began, but quickly realized that it couldn't be, which is why he began working on Zero Year as a new origin tale. One of the major problems with it would be the climax where Jim's infant son is kidnapped. This was still (somewhat) fine pre-52 if you consider that Batman must have been around something like 15-20 years. This nicely spaced out the DCU, allowed for all events, explained how Batman could have 5 different protégés using the monicker "Robin" and a 10 year old son. And of course this allowed for Jim's son to grow into the disturbed teenager seen in Snyder's final 'Tec story.

    The condescension of the DCU makes a lot of what happened in the 15-20 year period unfeasable. I'm still in disbelief that 4 boys have all taken the name "Robin" in that time. They had only a year to the name each? I'll accept that Damian was artificially aged, but why only to 10 years? I doubt Knightfall happened, and even if it had, Jean-Paul Valley never took the cowel or became Azrael. Somehow, there is a Batman Incorporated featuring so many Batman based heroes across the globe. Sure. Final Crisis couldn't have happened so how did Batman die? Whatever, don't think too hard on it. It's all just Superboy punching everything.
    Last edited by davewire; 09-11-2015 at 08:19 PM.

  2. #17
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    I consider them separate entities, any events from pre-Flashpoint not occurring post-Flashpoint unless specifically mentioned in a New52 Bat-title and even if mentioned, they didn't necessarily play out in an identical fashion.

  3. #18

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    Yeah, Superboy Prime shadow-boxed a lot, reality got warped. New 52 in a Nutshell.

  4. #19
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    The five year things really messed with the order of events for Batman and Green Lantern. Lantern even more so because for Johns entire GL epic to have happened it would need to be heavily re written as so many of the characters in those stories aren't even around in the Nu52.

    As for Damian, I believe in the bat books they make reference that Bruce has been Batman for five years or whatever it is but prior to that he was traveling the globe and training for, was it ten years? I know they mentioned it in one of the last couple Batman issues if somebody wants to fact check that. So something like Damian I chalk it up to Bruce having encountered the League and Talia during the time he was out training with criminals so Damian isn't artificially aged, he's ten years old, Bruce just wasn't Batman when they conceived Damian.

    However if Knightfall happened then where is Jean Paul in the new continuity? If Final Crisis happened and Bruce still died for a little while then for a chunk of Batman's five year existence he wasn't even Batman. Which means he took on Grayson pretty early into his first year as the Bat, then Jason very quickly after Grayson moved on, met Damian for a blink of an eye, died and Grayson became Batman for however long we are to imagine that arc lasted for.

    I'm not a huge Batman buff as far as all the classic stories go, I haven't read Knightfall from beginning to end or No Man's Land, but I look at the Nu52 Batman as something almost entirely new and different from the Pre Flashpoint Batman. I think the only concrete story that happened is the Killing Joke and everything else is currently left up to the reader's interpretation, which is annoying because some people want to know the order of events.

    Off topic but someone mentioned just doing a full on reboot and starting with Zero Year, I second that. I wish the Nu52 had been a ground up reboot, clearing away all the confusing continuity and starting from scratch. Or doing something really bold like they did at the start of the silver age and introducing new characters with old monikers.

    I also wish Snyder or any writer had taken the Nu52 to reboot Bane. I love the character but I've never been a big fan of the whole venom angle. I wish they would have made him something more like the TDKR Bane, a member of the League, Batman's equal mentally and physically but hey we can wish in the one hand and poop in the other and see which one fill sup first, right?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorddominicus85 View Post
    As for Damian, I believe in the bat books they make reference that Bruce has been Batman for five years or whatever it is but prior to that he was traveling the globe and training for, was it ten years? I know they mentioned it in one of the last couple Batman issues if somebody wants to fact check that. So something like Damian I chalk it up to Bruce having encountered the League and Talia during the time he was out training with criminals so Damian isn't artificially aged, he's ten years old, Bruce just wasn't Batman when they conceived Damian.
    That's a really good way to help it fit! I hope they do that and put it in stone.
    Also, I think they should compress Knightfall, Final Crisis and Dickbats to this: Bane KILLS Batman, Dick becomes Batman (not JPV) but isn't the loner Bruce is so starts Batman Incorportated. Bruce comes back alive and then the existing New 52 Batman Inc happens as is. It is disbanded afterwards because Bruce is a loner etc.

  6. #21

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    I have been reading Batman comics for over 22 years now. The older I get and the more comics I read, the less I get hung up on continuity. I have so, so many Batman comics. It is just impossible to try to make them all fit together. What is most important to me these days is whether or not I enjoy any particular story based on its own merits.
    Last edited by kevink31593; 09-12-2015 at 11:55 AM.

  7. #22
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    It was different right from the beginning.
    Exactly. despite the "it's definitely NOT a reboot" line, it clearly was. DC's line was always that everything happened until contradicted by something else in which case it happened differently.

    I started reading after the original Crisis and while being a massive stickler for continuity up to Infinte Crisis, at which point I just gave up, it is refreshing to see a looser continuity.

    Now, if DC could just do so between books. While I LOVE Snyder's Batman, I see no reason why Robo-Bat is also crossing into other Bat-books while Snyder is playing out the main story. If other teams wanted to play with this concept DC should have release one-shots or mini-series. We ALL know Bruce will be back, so why interrupt other teams' work with the temporary status quo? With Batgirl, Catwoman and such, I thought DC was finally learning to allow each comic its own voice.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  8. #23
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    I've been treating the two as separate entities from the get go. The Bat-verse doesn't exist in a vacuum so it seemed to me that if there were so many changes out in the main body of the DCU then those changes had to have effected the Bat corner of it as well. There are a few similarities sure but in the main this is a separate universe from the pre-N52 one or at least in my mind they are. That's probably why some changes haven't bothered me as much as others.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevink31593 View Post
    I have been reading Batman comics for over 22 years now. The older I get and the more comics I read, the less I get hung up on continuity. I have so, so many Batman comics. It is just impossible to try to make them all fit together. What is most important to me these days is whether or not I enjoy any particular story based on its own merits.
    That's pretty much where I stand. I don't care about trying to fit every single Batman related story I've ever read together either. It seems pretty pointless exercise to me especially since I'm far more interested in judging a book on it own merits rather then on whether it "matters" or not. So long as I find something I can enjoy I don't care how it fits into things.
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  9. #24
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    Of course it's a different universe. It just shares similarities in its history.

    Nothing pre-52 is the backstory of the New 52 even if the New 52 references the event, because technically it's a different event.

    That doesn't mean there's no reading order though. The reading order for Johns' Green Lantern run for example still starts pre 52.

  10. #25
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    I also do not care too much about the official continuity (if I did, I would be crying, because I think even DC and the writers do not have a very clear idea). I have my own head canon, and the stories and characters I enjoyed are definitely part of it, whatever the latest continuity stunt says.

    To think of this, I like Grant Morrison's idea of this being a modern mythology. There are many stories and legends about the gods and heroes that have reached us, and some of them are not even compatible with each other. They are stories about larger-than-life characters and from all those elements we get our own mental picture of these characters.

    In my own head canon, for example, Tim Drake was Robin as we saw for years. The New52 continuity mess just means that writers will not acknowledge that openly in their current stories, and Tim's position in the Batfamily will be unfortunately awkward. At least right now, in the future who knows. Perhaps they will fix this. In any case, we will still be getting new stories, some of which will be good and/or important, and will keep adding to each reader's head canon.

  11. #26
    Incredible Member blunt_eastwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingcrimsonprog View Post
    The New52 world is its own world in some issues, and writers forget that in some issues. There wasn't a concrete continuity bible from the outset and noone was punished for breaking the reboot rule. Noone edited the writer's work to remove reboot mistakes.

    Also, Morrison's Inc run should've been released pre-52 and serve as the ending to the pre52 universe. The last issue should've been the last ever issue of the pre-52 universe.

    The first issue of the New 52 should've been Zero Year.

    They should've been brave and confident and assertive and just said this is the Ultimate Universe version of Batman, its totally different but trust us. If sales tanked they could've went back to pre-52 and just said "well never mind all that it was just an alternative universe" ...kind of what Earth One Batman is, or the Gotham TV show.

    Have you ever read Ultimate Spiderman, and the way they did The Clone Saga again, but more succinctly and in the new universe?

    The way I look at it now is that Zero Year is the start of the new 52, all other Snyder stories are a massive flash forward, and we're waiting for the Ultimate Universe succinct new universe retelling of all the referenced stories like Killing Joke, A Death In The Family, The Cult, Knightfall, Cataclysm etc.


    Hopefully when Snyder is done with his massive flash forward stories, someone will come in and fill in the gaps between Zero Year and 'Owls.
    Agreed. Johns and Morrison should have been able to finish their runs before rebooting, and there should have been an official crisis story to serve as a bridge between the end of the old DCU and the creation of the New 52. Final Crisis really could have been this story and would have added immensely to the weight of the story if it were actually about the end of the universe for real.

    I really wish DC had just stuck to their guns and rebooted everything from scratch instead of trying to please everyone with the pseudo-reboot and then claiming that they wanted to get away from the old continuity, only to bring it back with Convergence.

    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Exactly. despite the "it's definitely NOT a reboot" line, it clearly was. DC's line was always that everything happened until contradicted by something else in which case it happened differently.

    I started reading after the original Crisis and while being a massive stickler for continuity up to Infinte Crisis, at which point I just gave up, it is refreshing to see a looser continuity.

    Now, if DC could just do so between books. While I LOVE Snyder's Batman, I see no reason why Robo-Bat is also crossing into other Bat-books while Snyder is playing out the main story. If other teams wanted to play with this concept DC should have release one-shots or mini-series. We ALL know Bruce will be back, so why interrupt other teams' work with the temporary status quo? With Batgirl, Catwoman and such, I thought DC was finally learning to allow each comic its own voice.
    I also agree with the points you made as well. Snyder's run should be self-contained with some one-shots if people are really that desperate to see Clark's reaction to Robo-bat. Interrupting other books makes no sense and if they just want to boost sales with a cross-over gimmick, then the one-shots would accomplish that.

    And regarding your comments about a looser continuity being refreshing, I loved how there was an overall narrative that continued through the major stories of the DCU. Part of what kept me reading the books was that there was a larger story of the universe being told and there were consequences from each story (Ted dies, Sue Dibney is killed, etc)

  12. #27
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    I always imagine that Bruce and Dick Grayson have pretty much been the same from the beginning.

    Final Crisis I think still pretty much "ended reality" and we had a small bubble that happened in between where Superman liked hiking and Batman went incorporated. The Justice League was Donna Troy and Green Arrow had his cry for justice. Barry did timey wimey hi jinks...bam we're here.
    Last edited by Flash Gordon; 09-14-2015 at 11:41 AM.

  13. #28
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingcrimsonprog View Post
    The way I look at it now is that Zero Year is the start of the new 52, all other Snyder stories are a massive flash forward, and we're waiting for the Ultimate Universe succinct new universe retelling of all the referenced stories like Killing Joke, A Death In The Family, The Cult, Knightfall, Cataclysm etc.

    Hopefully when Snyder is done with his massive flash forward stories, someone will come in and fill in the gaps between Zero Year and 'Owls.
    That's not gonna happen for a lot of reasons, chiefly because we're not in some massive flash forward, because that's not how DC or the writers see it. We're in the present and not leaving it. And many or most writers want to strike on their own with new iconic/high selling stories like Court of Owls/Night of Owls and not rehash old stories they'll be controversially and endlessly compared to.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 09-14-2015 at 12:32 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Yeah, this thread just gives me a stomach ache... im going to keep on reading the things i enjoy and ignore DC's convoluted continuity problems..

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