More PIS required for their fights: Superman vs Batman OR Hulk vs Wolverine ?

[moonknight11]

I could have sworn Wolverine had other supporting feats but it seems he just cuts up traps and metals of unknown durability (including piercing spaceships). If all his fights are thrown out you get very few reasons for him to claw up objects that measure up to say the Thing. The few objects I can think that get up there in durability (Juggys helmet, Sentinels, iron man's armor) also tend to happen in fights. A distinction between character and object instead of fight and nonfight would yield more feats but I'm not the one doing the argument framing so who cares. You only get a handful of feats anyway. It's similar to caps shield in that it gets most of its feats from fights where cap is facing someone way out of his weight class. I'm assuming the shield has much better outside fight feats than the claws do.

If Wolverine tore up a sentinel that wasn't fighting him would that be acceptable as supporting evidence(not that it's happened, I'll look for it I guess)? Or that one feat where wolverine's claws go through the iron man gauntlets he was wearing like nothing? These feats put him way below hulk cutting but maybe we can find a benchmark.

[Pendaran]

It's similar to caps shield in that it gets most of its feats from fights where cap is facing someone way out of his weight class. I'm assuming the shield has much better outside fight feats than the claws do.

No one is trying to argue Cap can legit hurt the Hulk with his shield. It has plenty of things where Cap will do stuff like throw it through the front of a truck and etc which are fine.

Or that one feat where wolverine's claws go through the iron man gauntlets he was wearing like nothing?

When Iron Man's durability these days is as much about the force fields that reinforce his armor? To the point that Osborn as Iron Patriot was less effective across the board in it due to a flawed understanding of the suit? No, not really.

With that said, issue number for that one?

If Wolverine tore up a sentinel that wasn't fighting him would that be acceptable as supporting evidence(not that it's happened, I'll look for it I guess)?

Depends what you're trying to say it justifies or places him at.

A distinction between character and object instead of fight and nonfight would yield more feats but I'm not the one doing the argument framing so who cares.

When that leads to the semantics of "well, it was iron man's armor he cut while fighting iron man.."

If all his fights are thrown out

It's phrasing like this and that whole "thousands of fights" that gets me. What about the fights where he fails to cut high end bricks? Things like that make it come off like "well those are the low showings".

Or: Wolverine can cut Sentinels in a general sense, why not. Wolverine effing about with his claws on some bulletproof++ ish sort of level seems pretty fine conceptually with what he otherwise cuts up on routine and what people within his physicality range can do when they don't even have an indestructible set of claws to then stack ontop of what they are doing.

But by contrast.. Wolverine can cut Sentinels that apparently Colossus can't even scratch, let's say? Why should that be the case.

[StupidMoniker]

That's the 'feat', so to speak.

Right up there with deciding that beating Wonder Woman, Nu52 and all, was as simple a matter as kicking her in the solar plexus to seal her breathing.

After his knuckles shattered on her face.

Riiiiiight.

Have to get her out of the way somehow. Otherwise, how does he get around to avoiding Flash with a smoke bomb and incapacitating Green Lantern with a rope?

[moonknight11]

No one is trying to argue Cap can legit hurt the Hulk with his shield. It has plenty of things where Cap will do stuff like throw it through the front of a truck and etc which are fine.

I meant defensively. Outside of fights Cap doesnt tend to block class 100 damage. The closest thing i can think off is the rocket exhaust feat, but im no cap expert. I'm betting 5 million buckaroos that the shield has more feats than wolverine's claws outside of fights since its a far more useful object.

When Iron Man's durability these days is as much about the force fields that reinforce his armor? To the point that Osborn as Iron Patriot was less effective across the board in it due to a flawed understanding of the suit? No, not really.

With that said, issue number for that one?

It's that one grotesquely drawn civil war arc. Iron Man lends Wolverine an underwater Iron Man suit, to go argue with Namor or something and Wolverine has no problem popping his claws while wearing it.

Depends what you're trying to say it justifies or places him at.

Hrm, understandable.

When that leads to the semantics of "well, it was iron man's armor he cut while fighting iron man.."

Yeah but its rare that he's gonna get a shot at cutting something that durable outside of a fight, unless Magneto or someone made a cage for wolverine made up entirely of Iron Man armors. Its usually just generic titanium or steel or whatever, unless it goes to the other extreme where he faces adamantium and adamantium lite (omega red). I'l keep looking though i really dont want to read the latter day Bendis avenger run where he featured a lot ;_;

It's phrasing like this and that whole "thousands of fights" that gets me. What about the fights where he fails to cut high end bricks? Things like that make it come off like "well those are the low showings".

True. I was wrong about savage hulk, and bought that argument that all the times he couldnt cut him got retconned into hulk healing fast. I tried to look into it but i found no proof of that. I thought Colossus was the only real outlier, but Hulk is actually a bigger one. How many fights get thrown out though? Just the ones above his highest non fight cutting feat? Which would include Thing and Namor and Colossus the one time he got cut among others.

Or: Wolverine can cut Sentinels in a general sense, why not. Wolverine effing about with his claws on some bulletproof++ ish sort of level seems pretty fine conceptually with what he otherwise cuts up on routine and what people within his physicality range can do when they don't even have an indestructible set of claws to then stack ontop of what they are doing.

But by contrast.. Wolverine can cut Sentinels that apparently Colossus can't even scratch, let's say? Why should that be the case.

which sentinels are these? anyway maybe colossus is more durable than he is strong like The Thing? nah you're right that's a bit excessive. Now if Colossus threw him and that cut them up it seems reasonable.

I looked back at Wolverine's early Uncanny days where they fight the N'gai demon. Colossus was capable of punching the dude back, and Cyclops' beam wasn't able to do much to him anymore. Wolverine carved the dude up after going in a rage. would this put him at cutting up dudes that are like class 30 or 40 (colossus was a weaker back then)? This colossus would later have a fistfight with gladiator that would collapse a building so he was still pretty strong though quite young.

[Pendaran]

I meant defensively. Outside of fights Cap doesnt tend to block class 100 damage. The closest thing i can think off is the rocket exhaust feat, but im no cap expert. I'm betting 5 million buckaroos that the shield has more feats than wolverine's claws outside of fights since its a far more useful object.

It has various things, but all the same, here's what that is as far as why that's still not the same thing on a conceptual level. How impact absorbing do you feel vibranium is? As Cap's shield is massively jacked up vibranium.

It's that one grotesquely drawn civil war arc. Iron Man lends Wolverine an underwater Iron Man suit, to go argue with Namor or something and Wolverine has no problem popping his claws while wearing it.

I'm particularly loath to put a lot of stock in "Tony gives Wolverine some random ass Iron Man suit".

How many fights get thrown out though? Just the ones above his highest non fight cutting feat? Which would include Thing and Namor and Colossus the one time he got cut among others.

At this point it's looking to certainly be "his high end brick fights where he cuts them" at least.

[moonknight11]

It has various things, but all the same, here's what that is as far as why that's still not the same thing on a conceptual level. How impact absorbing do you feel vibranium is? As Cap's shield is massively jacked up vibranium.

I think Cap's shield can absorb all the class 100 impact it regularly does, and it helps that cap's shield can absorb (lol) feats from other lesser vibranium items that were pretty impressive like that suit BP had. If other sharpened metal adamantium objects were wielded more commonly would they support Logan's case? interesting hypothetical imo.

I'm particularly loath to put a lot of stock in "Tony gives Wolverine some random ass Iron Man suit".

It's probably not a particularly good iron man suit but at least it feats your parameters of non-fight cutting feats. sad that it is literally the only thing i could find.

At this point it's looking to certainly be "his high end brick fights where he cuts them" at least.

Ok you've convinced me. What did you think of the N'garai demon fight i brought up? it looks to me like a solid benchmark alongside the wendigo.

[Pendaran]

Ok you've convinced me. What did you think of the N'garai demon fight i brought up? it looks to me like a solid benchmark alongside the wendigo.

I wouldn't really call the Wendigo a solid benchmark given how often people with the Wendigo curse manage to get cut or pierced or the like (and in one case, shot). Which makes the N'garai thing less solid..

I think Cap's shield can absorb all the class 100 impact it regularly does, and it helps that cap's shield can absorb (lol) feats from other lesser vibranium items that were pretty impressive like that suit BP had. If other sharpened metal adamantium objects were wielded more commonly would they support Logan's case? interesting hypothetical imo.

To put it a different way, vibranium really only does one specific thing (well, Wakandan vibranium). Cap's shield does that thing, but is a superalloy of vibranium+other crap. Which at this point includes the material Thor's hammer is made out of. I'm pretty okay with vibranium+something that even true adamantium is apparently a lesser version of* holding up to what it has (also now including uru)

*adamantium is the result of the guy who made Cap's shield by functional accident trying to reproduce it and never succeeding. Which is to say, durable as adamantium is, it is amusingly the equivalent of the made in Taiwan version of Captain America's shield.

[moonknight11]

I wouldn't really call the Wendigo a solid benchmark given how often people with the Wendigo curse manage to get cut or pierced or the like (and in one case, shot). Which makes the N'garai thing less solid..

That makes sense. At least the N'garai demon isnt way beyond what Wolverine does to titanium or the danger room or sentinels imo.

To put it a different way, vibranium really only does one specific thing (well, Wakandan vibranium). Cap's shield does that thing, but is a superalloy of vibranium+other crap. Which at this point includes the material Thor's hammer is made out of. I'm pretty okay with vibranium+something that even true adamantium is apparently a lesser version of* holding up to what it has (also now including uru)

*adamantium is the result of the guy who made Cap's shield by functional accident trying to reproduce it and never succeeding. Which is to say, durable as adamantium is, it is amusingly the equivalent of the made in Taiwan version of Captain America's shield.

It's funny, Carbonadium is the Adamantium to Adamantium's Vibranium.

this a bit offtopic in a way but would you rank Uru alongside Adamantium in durability?

Edit: I just realized something regarding the comparison between adamantium and cap's shield. If Woverine's bones were coated in Cap's shield he would be totally fine being punched by Hulk and co. he would never be knocked out. at most he'd lose a face but vibranium would absorb everything else. his brain would never knock around his skull and take him out. thats the best example of conceptual difference between the two i can think of.

[Pendaran]

this a bit offtopic in a way but would you rank Uru alongside Adamantium in durability?

Mnneeeehhhhhhhhhh.... somewhat less?

[moonknight11]

Mnneeeehhhhhhhhhh.... somewhat less?

thats interesting. does it have more magical properties though? you know a lot more about asgardians than i do so thanks for the answers.

[Pendaran]

thats interesting. does it have more magical properties though? you know a lot more about asgardians than i do so thanks for the answers.

It's receptive to holding enchantments and crap like that, it's why Odin and the dwarves make magical junk out of it.