More PIS required for their fights: Superman vs Batman OR Hulk vs Wolverine ?

[abmccray]

And so far the basis for saying that trucks in stuff that has little to do with comics as far as analysis, an analysis that people demonstrate the faulty application of even just on its own terms and applies limiters to things peak humans have done that were not going on with the things they did as far as bracing and the like.

I'll certainly agree of course that when Wolverine's claws cut high end bricks, they're going way beyond comic book peak humans, but then again I don't actually think those showings are valid.

When Wolverine cuts, say, a girder, nothing but some problematic attempt to apply PSI analysis to comics puts it "way beyond" peak human. Beyond? Sure. Beyond what would happen if you gave one of those other guys the same thing? Not really.

Actually, I don't agree with that completely. If you give Batman or many other peak humans an adamantium sword, they wouldn't be able to slice and dice like Wolverine does (except, probably on metas, where you run into the same problem). It's similar to Wolverine's healing factor and out there strength feats that put him with Spider-man; he gets written far more wildly than other characters partially because of his popularity sticking him with so many writers with their own views on exactly what he can do.

Put Batman in front of a Terminator style robot, give him an 6 inch adamantium sword? Sure, he'd probably decapitate him in comics and that goes along with peak human b.s. in comics in general. Put him in front of a heavy duty Sentinel? I don't see him de-limbing it, not at the joints, with ease. Maybe an, "I will find this pressure point/weak spot/brain chip and stab here, shutting it down" type of thing.

What you see Wolverine doing with his blades is what is NORMALLY reserved for Class 50s - 100s in comics and animation with weapons that have additions that make them cut more while slicing:



That kind of leap seems to be strictly contained to Cap's shield and Wolverine's claws (for much of the same reason), and only with a relative few writers in their history. I see it no different than them slicing, etc. metahumans who they should have no effect on, just on a relatively slightly smaller level that sits in the midway between bending steel and "cuts Hulk," as I rated it and explained why.

[abmccray]

Why do we have to assume that? They're fictional characters, the same as Ivan Drago. So why should he get 4 tons of force, and they can't get over a half-ton?

The smiley was indicating a not all serious statement, that played on "if you're counting them as their characters or the wrestlers themselves."

[Pendaran]

and out there strength feats that put him with Spider-man

What out there strength feats do you feel put him with Spiderman? And I guess I have to ask, are you now saying Wolverine is legitimately in Spiderman's strength bracket, or is this another "I'm not actually saying that".

If you give Batman or many other peak humans an adamantium sword, they wouldn't be able to slice and dice like Wolverine does

Given what they otherwise do, don't see why not. You've even got dueling PSI analysis behind that, since "taking it on what happens conceptually in the comics" seems to be something you refuse to engage with remotely.

Also you now seem to be walking back on how crazy even cutting a girder should be for why Wolverine and his claws are beyond what peak humans could do should they have such a thing.

Unless you're also running with slicing a girder and decapitating a Terminator are themselves wildly apart.

That kind of leap seems to be strictly contained to Cap's shield and Wolverine's claws (for much of the same reason), and only with a relative few writers in their history. I see it no different than them slicing, etc. metahumans who they should have no effect on, just on a relatively slightly smaller level that sits in the midway between bending steel and "cuts Hulk," as I rated it and explained why.

Yes, as based on things that have nothing to do with comics so much as scientific analysis of comics, saying people were "braced", and the like, I got it.

he gets written far more wildly than other characters partially because of his popularity sticking him with so many writers with their own views on exactly what he can do.

Both Captain America and Batman get written beyond capacity all kinds of ways.

And again we're back to Deathstroke with this argument, who gets written far more wildly than other characters partially because of...

What you see Wolverine doing with his blades is what is NORMALLY reserved for Class 50s - 100s in comics and animation:

Allcaps does not actually make this the case. And the higher end of those bricks? Do things wildly beyond that sort of thing such that to invoke them at all as part of your justifications is just odd.

Frankly that entire scale is a curious choice to invoke unless you are very specifically talking about "when Raiden parries and holds back that giant arm blade" and that sort of thing.

That kind of leap seems to be strictly contained to Cap's shield and Wolverine's claws (for much of the same reason), and only with a relative few writers in their history. I see it no different than them slicing, etc. metahumans who they should have no effect on, just on a relatively slightly smaller level that sits in the midway between bending steel and "cuts Hulk," as I rated it and explained why.

Your explanations have little to do with the things actually done in comics on their own terms and mostly to do with analysis that goes well beyond what it can bear.

[Pendaran]

Just to be more specific for a minute.

That kind of leap seems to be strictly contained to Cap's shield and Wolverine's claws (for much of the same reason),

Batman has busted up robots by karate kicking them to the head, while in the air if this is going to go to "he was braced". If you gave him either unbreakable claws or a shield, him doing the various throw shield through thing, or cut thing apart still seem entirely fine (with regards the metal objects either have done up), and the argument against not continues to be "because science".

[The Dork Knight]

I'm sorry abmccray ......I might be reading this wrong but did you just say "Batman is going to decapitate a 6 foot tall Terminator robot with an adamantium sword but not a 20 foot tall sentinel because that's just how Batman is written , because that's just how the comic would go "

If so , do you see how flawed that is , when you apply .....sigh the Deathstroke analogy again ?

" Deathstroke will totally react to a Flash and say how he is faster than him / have others remark so but he isn't going to blitz Batman Flash style because that's how the comic would go "

Because yes , that's indeed how the comic would go . But that's well.....basic PIS

[The Dork Knight]

Unless you mean that Batman can't cut through a sentinel based on feats ....but Wolverine can

In which case , feats to show Logan is vastly stronger than Batman ?

[Pendaran]

Unless you mean that Batman can't cut through a sentinel based on feats ....but Wolverine can

In which case , feats to show Logan is vastly stronger than Batman ?

The argument to this point is that he doesn't have to provide any such feats, because the idea of those claws cutting what they do is so scientifically ridiculous that they're functionally unique magic almost separate from anything else Wolverine can do. And science also shows us that a peak human wouldn't be able to do the same. (there's a contrasting science argument of "sure they would", but pay no attention. Though again for my part, either approach is fundamentally wrong headed to try and view comics by anyway)

The new "Wolverine has strength feats out there with Spiderman" may take things to new and interesting places though.

[The Dork Knight]

The argument to this point is that he doesn't have to provide any such feats, because the idea of those claws cutting what they do is so scientifically ridiculous that they're functionally unique magic almost separate from anything else Wolverine can do. And science also shows us that a peak human wouldn't be able to do the same. (there's a contrasting science argument of "sure they would", but pay no attention. Though again for my part, either approach is fundamentally wrong headed to try and view comics by anyway)

The new "Wolverine has strength feats out there with Spiderman" may take things to new and interesting places though.

Yeah but I believe he does when he says its "Batman with an adamantium sword " . Basically Batman has the same magic claws now ( by his own logic ) .

So anything Logan does and Batman can't do with those claws is pretty much due to a strength difference between them at this point

So .......hmm Logan needs to be considerably stronger for any of this to be logical

Which is where " Spider-Man level strength " comes in , I guess. Hmm...this is the first time I'm hearing that Wolverine has Spider-Man level strength . If so , a significant portion of the earlier discussion where comparisons were made with Captain America and his shield make ......more sense now . Clearly he believes the analogy doesn't work because now Logan is considerably stronger apparently

[abmccray]

I'm sorry abmccray ......I might be reading this wrong but did you just say "Batman is going to decapitate a 6 foot tall Terminator robot with an adamantium sword but not a 20 foot tall sentinel because that's just how Batman is written , because that's just how the comic would go "

The statement was "if other peak humans had adamantium claws, they would do the same things Wolverine does because that's peak human strength."

My response was, "I don't really see that happening, instead, it's bad writing when Wolverine does Class ~50 feats just because his claws were stronger metal. If Batman or other peak humans were given an admantium sword, they could possibly cut through a terminator's neck, thus matching more of Logan's "average" feats, but not the feats writers have of him chopping through gigantic hunks of metal like butter." It's the difference between slicing one Terminator at a thinner, weaker point, or lining up 5 back to back and cutting through their torsos effortlessly in one swipe.

I posted a video as an example to make it clear. Logan sometimes does stuff that you typically need class 50 through 100 people, or people with actual superpowered cutting type swords (thus melting while they're slicing) to do, even in similar fiction. And heated and motorized diamond bladed swords are much better than adamantium for doing that type of stuff, and that's what even the Class 50s often have.

Basically people are saying that since he can do things that peak humans can do, he can do things that normally take a Class 20 and up to do because his claws are really hard, and that somehow makes sense. But only up to Class 50, no higher than that - then it stops making sense.

[abmccray]

Yeah but I believe he does when he says its "Batman with an adamantium sword " . Basically Batman has the same magic claws now ( by his own logic ) .

So anything Logan does and Batman can't do with those claws is pretty much due to a strength difference between them at this point

So .......hmm Logan needs to be considerably stronger for any of this to be logical

Which is where " Spider-Man level strength " comes in , I guess. Hmm...this is the first time I'm hearing that Wolverine has Spider-Man level strength . If so , a significant portion of the earlier discussion where comparisons were made with Captain America and his shield make ......more sense now . Clearly he believes the analogy doesn't work because now Logan is considerably stronger apparently

Terminator necks are very sinewy, and the "strands" than make them up are around the size of what Batman/Cap can bend in higher feats, and they are made of a titanium alloy that bends and stretches at the joints and can be busted by a home made pipe bomb. This aligns with Wolverine cutting through standard robots with his claws, which is why I say Batman can do it with a sword as well, and it's fine for "peak human" presentation, since the pieces are around the size of the metal they're shown bending. It's a STRETCH, but only by a relatively small magnitude, from the "normal" ridiculous starting point of a peak human.



Ripping through the much thicker parts of the often more heavily armored sentinels should take someone of Spider-man's strength at least, with effort. This, apparently, is him (Spider-man) doing it with a rather standard Sentinel, on a weaker jointed part (see how relatively thick the metal is around that - even at that size, which is not one of the larger ones, it's pretty much multiple Terminator torso sizes), and bracing himself against the Sentinel while using his steelish strengthed web to do it:



Cutting through them in less weak spots would take even MORE strength than that because of the thickness of the metal that is being cut.

Saying "Wolverine has claws that are made of a stronger metal" doesn't really change that or help his case when he matches those feats. Unless his claws are superheated or vibrate ultra fast or something, that wouldn't help him. It's basically saying that he's as strong as Spider-man, which is as B.S. as Deathstroke tagging old school Quicksilver or something. You guys discounting how much B.S. even goes into that is the point. The more metal there is in one spot, the harder it is to get through, exponentially, going to factors of hundreds with more and more inches added, and cutting through stuff like steel girders and Sentinels (edit: and throwing shields through tanks or apparently busting through 6 inch thick steel) really approaches the Class 20-50 area.

[Pendaran]

Saying "Wolverine has claws that are made of a stronger metal" doesn't really change that or help his case when he matches those feats. Unless his claws are superheated or vibrate ultra fast or something, that wouldn't help him. It's basically saying that he's as strong as Spider-man, which is as B.S. as Deathstroke tagging old school Quicksilver or something. You guys are discounting how much B.S. even goes into that is the point.

So, just to be clear, you've moved past girders and cars and the like and we're going now with "sentinels and up".

Ripping through the much thicker parts of the often more heavily armored sentinels should take someone of Spider-man's strength at least, with effort. This, apparently, is him doing it with a rather standard Sentinel, on a weaker jointed part (see how relatively thick the metal is around that):

He's swinging the head around such that he used it as a weapon against a Sentinel, that then knocked its head off, just from the force of him swinging it around, in a single swing. How much effort do you think Spiderman put into pulling off that Sentinel's head?

[Pendaran]

You know what, while I'm here, considering how this "Wolverine has cut the Savage Hulk" stuff has been turning out, do you have particular examples of Wolverine doing these things you're talking about? Because, there are certainly times where Wolverine's, say, cut through a Sentinel's arm or even neck to reveal rather less than the near solid mass of steel you're talking about.

You're talking about, "Wolverine does things with his claws that only class 50+ bricks should do (my given example is from someone even weaker than that)". Like what? What particularly?

[abmccray]

I beam flanges can be 3 - 6 inches thick, which approaches a Sentinel's shell. It's a close step towards it as illustrated in the post you quoted and read earlier where I already showed that it was a gradiating line.

Spider-man, who is something like 10X stronger than Wolverine, braced his leg against the Sentinel and used his web to slice the strands of metal holding the neck up, and then used his strength combined with that weight and centrifugal force to knock another Sentinel's head off. So a moderate amount of effort, but not straining himself. In other words, a great deal more strength than Wolverine could put out.

Counter-question, would Wolverine be able to do the same thing with Spider-man's web that Spider-man is doing? If not, why not, if he can cut through it? If so, how much more strength would he have to use to do so?

[Pendaran]

Frankly if that Sentinel is no thicker or more durable than a steel girder as far as your attempted reasoning, that a guy who has used subway cars as a weapon against people and hurled jeeps to take out snipers is having to put in moderate effort by your estimation for any of that, Pete's being jobbed right the hell out. And that's a rare sentence from me on Rumbles (and in that scan, it looks at least double the thickness of his body, though the inside is of course not some solid girder like mass, but again, a bunch of separate cables and tubes). I've seen Wolverine decapitate and delimb sentinels with a single claw swipe certainly, but he's done so to ones whose thickness does not exceed the length of his claws. Such that he is swiping his claws right through them. You are arguing that this is the impossible class 50, redacted to class 20 feat?

Counter-question, would Wolverine be able to do the same thing with Spider-man's web that Spider-man is doing?

Despite only answering one of the questions I put to you? Interesting. It would depend how much that head weighs and how durable those Sentinels are. How much do you figure that is?

If not, why not, if he can cut through it? If so, how much more strength would he have to use to do so?

Let's see, going by the PSI analysis that is your entire basis for doing so, he can cut through it spectacularly considering the ways other people have invoked it as far as pressure and concentration.

Not going by it though (because that level of analysis remains wrongheaded), because something where, again going by your estimations, Peter is apparently being massively jobbed out, Wolverine should be fine. It's only so durable, and ontop of his strength, he's hacking unbreakable claws through it.

And again, so what are these showings of Wolverine for instance, basically being Raiden? Are you saying that whenever he's cut a girder that's what's happening?

[Carabas]

I think people are overplaying the role of strength in all of this.

Nothing I've ever read about Wolverine indicates that cutting though anything at all with it is a feat of strength. It's a feat of sharpness (or of damage resistance of the cuttee).
It seems very binairy. If the Adamantium is sharp enough to cut substace or person X, then anybody can slice them to bit. If the Adamantium isn't sharp enough, then it doesn't matter how strong the guy with the claws is, it's not going to cut it.

Seems like every form of matter in the omniverse can be divided into three tiers: can be slashed through like a lightsaber through hot butter, can't be sloced at all, and can be scratched and cut, but not very deeply.