More PIS required for their fights: Superman vs Batman OR Hulk vs Wolverine ?

[The Dog]

Superman vs. Batman requires PIS, because Superman is the Hulk plus laser beam eyes, x-ray vision, freeze breath, flight, superhuman senses, superhuman reflexes, super speed, and super intelligence, and Batman is Wolverine minus the fictional uber-metal skeleton/claws, superhuman speed, superhuman strength, superhuman reflexes, and regenerative ability that'd allow him to resist a blow from someone with Superman/Hulk-level strength.

And we're not expected to buy that Hulk vs. Wolverine is a fight worthy of being made into a major motion picture.

[abmccray]

Superman vs. Batman requires PIS, because Superman is the Hulk plus laser beam eyes, x-ray vision, freeze breath, flight, superhuman senses, superhuman reflexes, super speed, and super intelligence, and Batman is Wolverine minus the fictional uber-metal skeleton/claws, superhuman speed, superhuman strength, superhuman reflexes, and regenerative ability that'd allow him to resist a blow from someone with Superman/Hulk-level strength.

And we're not expected to buy that Hulk vs. Wolverine is a fight worthy of being made into a major motion picture.

MoS does not, as of yet have many of his superhuman senses, anything beyond ringer speed, any degree of super intelligence. Meanwhile, Batman is supposedly going to be presented as his peak human self, and will probably be setting up a SCENARIO in which he targets Superman (and from the trailer, where it's more of a test, and Superman proves that he won't kill him after getting through the scenario).

[The Drunkard Kid]

MoS Supes definitely had super senses, as there was a scene of kid Clark going into a panic attack when he stayed developing them at school and having them overloaded was one of the evil Kryptonians main weaknesses until Zod learned to focus past them at the end.

[The Drunkard Kid]

And it's not the intent when Deathstroke hits Flashes to show that the things he hits aren't superfast, it's that Deathstroke is so awesome he can hit superfast things, and his extra brain use or whatever lets him compensate for the speed of the things he is hitting.

IIRC, it usually works by the Flash in question forgetting they have reflexes on par with their travel speed and basically walking into attacks that should hurt them, but should never hit in the first place. Logan himself does things like that ocassionally when dealing with speedsters as well, though he rarely deals with ones on Wally's tier and had at least once explained it as letting the speedster wear themselves out wailing on him until they can be shanked, which is still a stretch.

Logan slashing super durable things shouldn't work by real life physics, but doesn't usually involve any aspect of the target's durability being forgotten. It's less like Deathstroke's ability to make Flashes run into his weapons and more like Captain America being able to block strikes from high end bricks with an object that his CBPH self normally chucks like a superball at least twenty times a day. Which fits, since Logan is basically Reverse Captain America in many ways.

[Doctor Know]

Deathstroke tagging Wally was also PIS. Meltzer needed a way to nerf Wally out of the fight, and did so in the most asspull way. Wally, at the time easily had FTL speeds and by extension had perception (visual and mental) of FTL. How Wally somehow runs into Deathstroke's sword or doesn't immediatly move out of the way, is PIS. Just like Zatanna not instantly freezing Deathstroke with a spell. Or the fact that Deathstroke had on him all the tools and weapons to take down that specific team of JLers.

[Pendaran]

IIRC, it usually works by the Flash in question forgetting they have reflexes on par with their travel speed and basically walking into attacks that should hurt them, but should never hit in the first place. Logan himself does things like that ocassionally when dealing with speedsters as well, though he rarely deals with ones on Wally's tier and had at least once explained it as letting the speedster wear themselves out wailing on him until they can be shanked, which is still a stretch.

Logan slashing super durable things shouldn't work by real life physics, but doesn't usually involve any aspect of the target's durability being forgotten. It's less like Deathstroke's ability to make Flashes run into his weapons and more like Captain America being able to block strikes from high end bricks with an object that his CBPH self normally chucks like a superball at least twenty times a day. Which fits, since Logan is basically Reverse Captain America in many ways.

In the context of Deathstroke, it's not portrayed as anyone forgetting anything, it's portrayed as Deathstroke being just that good, despite everything about Deathstroke, and the characters involved.

but doesn't usually involve any aspect of the target's durability being forgotten.

When Wolverine's very first showing is him going "my adamantium claws can't cut the Hulk", when we still get times where he doesn't cut superdurable things, sure it is.

Captain America being able to block strikes from high end bricks with an object that his CBPH self normally chucks like a superball at least twenty times a day. Which fits, since Logan is basically Reverse Captain America in many ways.

Captain America's shield specifically absorbs impacts. It's part made of vibranium as part of its unique whatever superalloy construction that makes it well beyond any of the fantastical nonsense that already went into it. Vibranium being a thing that has the specific power to.. absorb impacts, and the shield being an alloy of various wierd crap beyond its component parts.

That's not thereby the same thing.

[The Dog]

In the context of Deathstroke, it's not portrayed as anyone forgetting anything, it's portrayed as Deathstroke being just that good, despite everything about Deathstroke, and the characters involved.

Actually, in the scenario presented, that's exactly what it is. Namely, Black Canary forgetting she's both a skilled martial artist and has the Canary Cry, an ability that can rend metal. Hence why she was bested by having a burlap sack on her head. Then there's Kyle Rayner forgetting he has a damn Green Lantern ring, which does not require him to get anywhere NEAR Deathstroke to fight him effectively, especially not within arm's reach of the guy so Deathstroke can ridiculously grab his ring hand and somehow overpower his will, negating the ring.

[moonknight11]

When Wolverine's very first showing is him going "my adamantium claws can't cut the Hulk", when we still get times where he doesn't cut superdurable things, sure it is.

How common is that though in comparison to when his BS Magic Metal claws do cut up absurdly durable people/things? What ratio are we talking here? I think that ratio matters more than invoking his first appearance tbh. Thing one shot Norrin Radd in either Norrin's second or first appearance but low showings like that have been pretty scarce since then in comparison to his good durability feats.

[Pendaran]

How common is that though in comparison to when his BS Magic Metal claws do cut up absurdly durable people/things? What ratio are we talking here? I think that ratio matters more than invoking his first appearance tbh. Thing one shot Norrin Radd in either Norrin's second or first appearance but low showings like that have been pretty scarce since then in comparison to his good durability feats.

How common is Deathstroke missing a Flash or other speedster? He's pretty close to batting .1000 against them vis a vis hitting them. When Wolverine has no relevant superstrength and adamantium isn't "magically cuts everything", that it so happens where there are still times where Wolverine's claws don't magically cut everything are just that reasserting themselves.

Or, so does that mean when the Sentry grabbed Wolverine's claws and shoved them back against him with no damage, was that a low showing? Before you try and say "no", based on what? Wolverine cuts up absurdly durable people/things all the time with nothing else backing it other than "he does". Why shouldn't he cut the Sentry?

Actually, in the scenario presented, that's exactly what it is. Namely, Black Canary forgetting she's both a skilled martial artist and has the Canary Cry, an ability that can rend metal. Hence why she was bested by having a burlap sack on her head. Then there's Kyle Rayner forgetting he has a damn Green Lantern ring, which does not require him to get anywhere NEAR Deathstroke to fight him effectively, especially not within arm's reach of the guy so Deathstroke can ridiculously grab his ring hand and somehow overpower his will, negating the ring.

He's hit Flash, Kid Flash, outdrawn Superman, and such things well more than in Identity Crisis. Going by the standard people are arguing for Wolverine, despite having no relevant capacity for doing so, why can't Deathstroke hit speedsters?

Or: Outside of fights with the superdurable crowd, what has Wolverine cut up? What has Wolverine at least done to show he operates on a similar scale of effect and power?

[abmccray]

MoS Supes definitely had super senses, as there was a scene of kid Clark going into a panic attack when he stayed developing them at school and having them overloaded was one of the evil Kryptonians main weaknesses until Zod learned to focus past them at the end.

That's why I said "many of" as opposed to just supersenses. He has a degree of hearing and x-ray vision, but not all of the stacked ones he has in the comics, or the level of control (at this point). If you compare his heat vision usage to the comics, his other senses are probably equally as unrefined.

[abmccray]

How common is Deathstroke missing a Flash or other speedster? He's pretty close to batting .1000 against them vis a vis hitting them. When Wolverine has no relevant superstrength and adamantium isn't "magically cuts everything", that it so happens where there are still times where Wolverine's claws don't magically cut everything are just that reasserting themselves.

Or, so does that mean when the Sentry grabbed Wolverine's claws and shoved them back against him with no damage, was that a low showing? Before you try and say "no", based on what? Wolverine cuts up absurdly durable people/things all the time with nothing else backing it other than "he does". Why shouldn't he cut the Sentry?



He's hit Flash, Kid Flash, outdrawn Superman, and such things well more than in Identity Crisis. Going by the standard people are arguing for Wolverine, despite having no relevant capacity for doing so, why can't Deathstroke hit speedsters?

Or: Outside of fights with the superdurable crowd, what has Wolverine cut up? What has Wolverine at least done to show he operates on a similar scale of effect and power?

You're arguing past people. You're basically saying Wolverine cutting through shit he shouldn't be able to cut through makes as much sense as Deathstroke tagging speedsters, which no one is disagreeing with. What people are arguing is that, even though it makes no sense, he does it ALL of the time to objects he shouldn't be cutting through constantly, to the point where it's fair to say his claws magically work that way. Deathstroke -has- tagged Flashes, but he doesn't go around being ftl when he's not in Teen Titans or badly written crossovers constantly. The comparison would be, if, every time he showed up in Detective Comics or his own book, he's dodging lasers and stuff as well (as compared to Wolverine constantly cutting through Sentinels and such in his solo comics and X-Men).

[Captain Morgan]

Logan has been cutting through stuff raw strength wouldn't allow for a long time. I think it's just a matter of figuring out where that craps out. Sentry seems to be one example, but Sentry is more durable than the Hulk by a solid margin.

I do like the idea of looking at objects he has cut and failed to cut. What examples do people have there?

[The Dork Knight]

You're arguing past people. You're basically saying Wolverine cutting through shit he shouldn't be able to cut through makes as much sense as Deathstroke tagging speedsters, which no one is disagreeing with. What people are arguing is that, even though it makes no sense, he does it ALL of the time to objects he shouldn't be cutting through constantly, to the point where it's fair to say his claws magically work that way. Deathstroke -has- tagged Flashes, but he doesn't go around being ftl when he's not in Teen Titans or badly written crossovers constantly. The comparison would be, if, every time he showed up in Detective Comics or his own book, he's dodging lasers and stuff as well (as compared to Wolverine constantly cutting through Sentinels and such in his solo comics and X-Men).

I think you missed Pendarans point here

How common is Deathstroke missing a Flash or other speedster? He's pretty close to batting .1000 against them vis a vis hitting them. When Wolverine has no relevant superstrength and adamantium isn't "magically cuts everything", that it so happens where there are still times where Wolverine's claws don't magically cut everything are just that reasserting themselves.

Or, so does that mean when the Sentry grabbed Wolverine's claws and shoved them back against him with no damage, was that a low showing? Before you try and say "no", based on what? Wolverine cuts up absurdly durable people/things all the time with nothing else backing it other than "he does". Why shouldn't he cut the Sentry?



He's hit Flash, Kid Flash, outdrawn Superman, and such things well more than in Identity Crisis. Going by the standard people are arguing for Wolverine, despite having no relevant capacity for doing so, why can't Deathstroke hit speedsters?

Or: Outside of fights with the superdurable crowd, what has Wolverine cut up? What has Wolverine at least done to show he operates on a similar scale of effect and power?

To be precise , Slade has also tagged Wonder Woman , Donna Troy , Superboy , Captain Marvel Jr among others in comics and briefly evaded Supes . None of them are as fast as adult Wally , even Kid Flash / Impulse

The same argument ( Wolverine cuts through sentinels ) could be advanced for him as well

[Pendaran]

You're arguing past people. You're basically saying Wolverine cutting through shit he shouldn't be able to cut through makes as much sense as Deathstroke tagging speedsters, which no one is disagreeing with. What people are arguing is that, even though it makes no sense, he does it ALL of the time to objects he shouldn't be cutting through constantly, to the point where it's fair to say his claws magically work that way. Deathstroke -has- tagged Flashes, but he doesn't go around being ftl when he's not in Teen Titans or badly written crossovers constantly. The comparison would be, if, every time he showed up in Detective Comics or his own book, he's dodging lasers and stuff as well (as compared to Wolverine constantly cutting through Sentinels and such in his solo comics and X-Men).

Here's the thing. Deathstroke does it all the time to speedsters he shouldn't tag.

Just like Wolverine cuts superdurable bricks all the time. What does he do outside of that, to support that?

I'll give you a for instance. Wolverine shanked right through Gladiator, who otherwise flies around suns, comes out of contained explosions that could have wasted half the solar system mildly concussed, and if we're going to try "Gladiator has composite durability then", aside from no, nothing intimates that, grabs hypertech bullets in his hand without them tearing through his hand, as though he is not specifically vulnerable to being pierced.

So, outside of shanking Gladiator, what has Wolverine cut that is durable on that scale (again, not a "well Wolverine cut this person", as in, outside of a fight with X), or, again, I'm at least giving you a "what has Wolverine done to show being powerful on that scale"?

[Sharpandpointies]

Nothing that I personally know of. I mean, he cuts through stuff he has no business cutting through, like casually slicing through thick steel like it's paper. But Gladiator and other superbricks are a completely different thing.

Especially since he fails to cut through Colossus (it has happened more than once).