More PIS required for their fights: Superman vs Batman OR Hulk vs Wolverine ?

[StupidMoniker]

\I do like the idea of looking at objects he has cut and failed to cut. What examples do people have there?

On one side you have Hulk, and on the other side you have Hulk.

[Captain Morgan]

On one side you have Hulk, and on the other side you have Hulk.

I said objects, not characters. Characters job more than inanimate objects, at least in theory.

[abmccray]

As Morgan said, we have to figure out a defined point where his slicing "stops." He's cut through "upgraded" sentinels than Colossus didn't really even dent, and other stuff of that type of level, comparison. So where do we draw the line as to his magical cutting power?

[The Dork Knight]

As Morgan said, we have to figure out a defined point where his slicing "stops." He's cut through "upgraded" sentinels than Colossus didn't really even dent, and other stuff of that type of level, comparison. So where do we draw the line as to his magical cutting power?

Sentinels are still just characters

Also if he's failed to dent Collosus on occasion and then proceeds to slice through Sentinels that Collosus can't dent , well that would be jobbing now wouldn't it ?

[Pendaran]

As Morgan said, we have to figure out a defined point where his slicing "stops." He's cut through "upgraded" sentinels than Colossus didn't really even dent, and other stuff of that type of level, comparison. So where do we draw the line as to his magical cutting power?

Somewhere that isn't the equivalent of saying "Wolverine gets a pass on board standards for evidence because he's Wolverine".

This seems like a simple request I've made here. Outside of fights with those characters, what has he slashed up to justify what he does to the likes of the Hulk and what have you? If not, when has he at least performed on a level of effect that would remotely justify this sort of performance capacity.

So, a different not Deathstroke example. Karate Kid. Karate Kid comes out of the gate in almost all his incarnations, doing what he does, be it managing to take it to pre crisis Clark a little bit or interstellar judo tossing M'onel, knowing an entire galaxy's worth of capacity, along with whatever "super karate" is. And you can at least say when he's otherwise busting intertron and the emerald eye, putting out and redirecting earthquakes with his foot, the "I dodged it" insanity, he's proclaiming "I'm Karate Kid. I am in fact this stupid."

But so far the entire argument for Wolverine is "well he cuts superdurable people a lot, therefore we have to acknowledge it, despite his lack of any other capacity or showings to justify it, and despite the times where he more than once fails to that would make more sense by contrast." And somehow this is supposed to be different from "well Deathstroke hits superfast people a lot, therefore we have to acknowledge it, despite his lack of any other capacity to justify it."

[abmccray]

Sentinels are still just characters

Also if he's failed to dent Collosus on occasion and then proceeds to slice through Sentinels that Collosus can't dent , well that would be jobbing now wouldn't it ?

Sentinels are at least sometimes made of some quantifiable metal sometimes. If we aren't using characters for "what his claws work on," then all we have are him cutting through "normal" metal, which isn't fair either. If we don't count him cutting through characters, then you're throwing out thousands of his cutting feats, and just restricting it to armor and things he ALSO shouldn't be cutting through.

Given his powerset, he shouldn't be able to cut through a steel girder, but he does that consistently and easily, so where do you guys think the line is?

[The Dork Knight]

Sentinels are at least sometimes made of some quantifiable metal sometimes. If we aren't using characters for "what his claws work on," then all we have are him cutting through "normal" metal, which isn't fair either.

Lot of qualifiers there

If we don't count him cutting through characters, then you're throwing out thousands of his cutting feats, and just restricting it to armor and things he ALSO shouldn't be cutting through.

So ? Nobody's throwing out Logan slicing through regular humans because he has independent feats supporting them . Just the ones that involve the super durable crowd , especially when he explicitly fails to cut them on occasion too

Given his powerset, he shouldn't be able to cut through a steel girder, but he does that consistently and easily, so where do you guys think the line is?

What's the problem with Logan cutting through a steel girder ?

A guy who can hold an elevator full of people with unbreakable claws cuts through a girder ?

Hardly a big deal. Cassandra Cain has punched through bullet proof glass with her fists alone. Captain America throws his unbreakable shield hard enough to rip cars and tanks in half .

Peak human strength covers all that just fine

It's when he starts cutting a dude who literally ignores Captain Marvel wailing on him that " lifts an elevator full of people " no longer compensates for this. We are talking about a guy who shakes the planet down to the mantle as a side effect of his fights

Now if he had feats like slicing down nuke proof doors or something then we would be getting somewhere

[Pendaran]

Sentinels are at least sometimes made of some quantifiable metal sometimes. If we aren't using characters for "what his claws work on," then all we have are him cutting through "normal" metal, which isn't fair either. If we don't count him cutting through characters, then you're throwing out thousands of his cutting feats, and just restricting it to armor and things he ALSO shouldn't be cutting through.

Given his powerset, he shouldn't be able to cut through a steel girder, but he does that consistently and easily, so where do you guys think the line is?

Really, he's cut through high end bricks thousands of times?

[abmccray]

Really, he's cut through high end bricks thousands of times?

I didn't ask that or for criticism of other people's posts, I asked for YOUR limits; ie. an actual statement of where you place his limit.

[abmccray]

Lot of qualifiers there



So ? Nobody's throwing out Logan slicing through regular humans because he has independent feats supporting them . Just the ones that involve the super durable crowd , especially when he explicitly fails to cut them on occasion too



What's the problem with Logan cutting through a steel girder ?

A guy who can hold an elevator full of people with unbreakable claws cuts through a girder ?

Hardly a big deal. Cassandra Cain has punched through bullet proof glass with her fists alone. Captain America throws his unbreakable shield hard enough to rip cars and tanks in half .

Peak human strength covers all that just fine

It's when he starts cutting a dude who literally ignores Captain Marvel wailing on him that " lifts an elevator full of people " no longer compensates for this. We are talking about a guy who shakes the planet down to the mantle as a side effect of his fights

Now if he had feats like slicing down nuke proof doors or something then we would be getting somewhere

Bracing things with an unbreakable skeleton and healing factor is a magnitude of order below the strength it takes to cut through steel (or other metals) in one swipe. Not even one magnitude, but many magnitudes. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

As for Cap's shield, that's also a magical object that works however the writer feels like it at the time. It goes from blunt object when hitting something with its edge to "thing that can cut through anything" back and forth over and over again a million times, so that's like the worst counterexample ever.

[Pendaran]

So basically, because Wolverine cuts through steel, he can cut through the Hulk? That's your current argument.

I didn't ask that or for criticism of other people's posts, I asked for YOUR limits; ie. an actual statement of where you place his limit.

When Wolverine cuts through steel or girders, or bulletproof crap or whatever of that ilk, that's not particularly far off from the stretching of reality comics truck in when they also do things like define peak human as doing things humans basically don't. When Wolverine is cutting through the Hulk, or frankly any well up there brick, it's basically crap. As helped by that no one seems to be able to provide anything for why he should other than "because he does".

But really, this is again "Wolverine gets a pass because Wolverine" as far as yourself and the people trying to present the higher end showings as this thing that should be accepted as valid.

Or: What is your justification for Wolverine cutting the Hulk? Or any other superdurable being. Because basically this argument is coming down to "Because he does it" and now "because he also cuts through steel".

Where's your limit, particularly?

Bracing things with an unbreakable skeleton and healing factor is a magnitude of order below the strength it takes to cut through steel (or other metals) in one swipe. Not even one magnitude, but many magnitudes. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

How many magnitudes do you think is between steel and the Hulk if this is your justification for that Wolverine can cut the Hulk? Wolverine is a guy with something approaching comic book peak human strength and unbreakable claws, cutting steel is pretty okay for that.

[The Dork Knight]

Bracing things with an unbreakable skeleton and healing factor is a magnitude of order below the strength it takes to cut through steel (or other metals) in one swipe. Not even one magnitude, but many magnitudes. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

Ah but for the feat in question , he was explicitly using his muscle power as opposed to unbreakable skeleton or otherwise

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...8843-eleva.jpg

Even if it had been his skeleton alone giving him his peak human stats , it's well ....peak human stats in the end . Peak human stats + unbreakable claws seems good enough to cut steel for me

As for Cap's shield, that's also a magical object that works however the writer feels like it at the time. It goes from blunt object when hitting something with its edge to "thing that can cut through anything" back and forth over and over again a million times, so that's like the worst counterexample ever.

Personally I like to think of that as Cap having enough skill to throw it to " cut " or " not cut" every time he's going for slicing or otherwise

Also you will notice that I am not using it as a magical object that gets a free pass for when it hurts say Hulk or Thor

But cutting through a truck or a tank? Seems oKay for someone who casually benches a 1000 pounds

[Pendaran]

Y'know, this shouldn't be that hard, and especially considering how old the character is and how regularly they have shown up in comics, that I'm at this point only asking for the one showing is actually overly generous as far as evidence standards, but even the one showing would be something to at least start from.

So, again, what has Wolverine done outside of cutting superdurable bricks to justify him cutting said superdurable bricks? To the point that such times as he fails to are the low showings? And if the answer is nothing, then there a bunch of people that really need to start saying Deathstroke can legit hit people with near light reaction time and upwards into ftl.

[Ite]

Batman vs Superman by far.

[moonknight11]

Y'know, this shouldn't be that hard, and especially considering how old the character is and how regularly they have shown up in comics, that I'm at this point only asking for the one showing is actually overly generous as far as evidence standards, but even the one showing would be something to at least start from.

So, again, what has Wolverine done outside of cutting superdurable bricks to justify him cutting said superdurable bricks? To the point that such times as he fails to are the low showings? And if the answer is nothing, then there a bunch of people that really need to start saying Deathstroke can legit hit people with near light reaction time and upwards into ftl.

The Deathstroke analogy doesnt work in this case. Deathstroke fails to blitz and gets tagged by slower people /all the time/. From batman to nightwing to green arrow to like half the titans. Even in issues where he does indeed tag the flash he gets tagged by Batgirl or Green Arrow dodges his sword slash.

If wolverine made a habit of cutting hulk and then failing to cut tombstone or luke cage or generic titanium it would be comparable. If Woverine cut hulk then utterly failed to cut some garden varity chains, the analogy would work.

As it stands he cuts the metal of durable sentinels with ease, hulk far more often than not, namor, colossus once in a while (he seems to be like the most resistant brick to wolvie for some reason), thing at least twice, and wendigo (dating to even his first appearance that you mention often).

Theres obviously a limit since him cutting thanos, and gladiator and king thor is beyond even those consistent feats he's had.

Regarding hulk i have no problem having wolvies limit be savage hulks skin. a lot of the time he just causes gashes on his skin without getting into the organs and whatnot.Very superficial wounds is what im saying. Like, he can seriously hurt the much weaker Grey Hulk but trying to disembowel Savage Hulk is ridiculous and beyond his magic metal claws' capability to me.

If a character does something often and has very little to contradict it, why should we just throw it out? This is where the deathstroke example utterly fails. Deathstroke has a plethora of feats that contradict his FTL reflexes. every fistfight he has with a street leveler contradicts the flash tagging. This is not at all similar to Wolverine.