More PIS required for their fights: Superman vs Batman OR Hulk vs Wolverine ?

[abmccray]

So basically, because Wolverine cuts through steel, he can cut through the Hulk? That's your current argument.



When Wolverine cuts through steel or girders, or bulletproof crap or whatever of that ilk, that's not particularly far off from the stretching of reality comics truck in when they also do things like define peak human as doing things humans basically don't. When Wolverine is cutting through the Hulk, or frankly any well up there brick, it's basically crap. As helped by that no one seems to be able to provide anything for why he should other than "because he does".

But really, this is again "Wolverine gets a pass because Wolverine" as far as yourself and the people trying to present the higher end showings as this thing that should be accepted as valid.

Or: What is your justification for Wolverine cutting the Hulk? Or any other superdurable being. Because basically this argument is coming down to "Because he does it" and now "because he also cuts through steel".

Where's your limit, particularly?



How many magnitudes do you think is between steel and the Hulk if this is your justification for that Wolverine can cut the Hulk? Wolverine is a guy with something approaching comic book peak human strength and unbreakable claws, cutting steel is pretty okay for that.

Nope, I haven't presented an opinion of my own; I explained where people were coming from and that you were arguing past them, and asked where you personally put his limit at, which you are avoiding saying, instead attempting to prove me wrong to distract from that (even though I have not presented a set opinion).

[abmccray]

Ah but for the feat in question , he was explicitly using his muscle power as opposed to unbreakable skeleton or otherwise

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...8843-eleva.jpg

Even if it had been his skeleton alone giving him his peak human stats , it's well ....peak human stats in the end . Peak human stats + unbreakable claws seems good enough to cut steel for me



Personally I like to think of that as Cap having enough skill to throw it to " cut " or " not cut" every time he's going for slicing or otherwise

Also you will notice that I am not using it as a magical object that gets a free pass for when it hurts say Hulk or Thor

But cutting through a truck or a tank? Seems oKay for someone who casually benches a 1000 pounds

The difference between a guy cutting through a girder or a car with a single swipe (which he does all of the time, or equivalents), and lifting/benching even multiple thousands of times is like a difference of a magnitude of thousands. One is a level of exaggeration; one is so far beyond impossible that it's laughable.

It comes from the whole "super awesome ninjas can slice through anything via skills" trope, but is taken to ridiculous levels beyond that with Wolverine. As a comparison, even though it's really stupid silly with someone like Raiden in Metal Gear Rising, he, at least, is combining low end Class 100 strength, very supersonic swinging speed, a fully metal body (so that the path of least resistance isn't flesh and skin), and blades that have something going on outside of just being a hard, strong blade. And it's still silly. Wolverine has none of that and regularly accomplishes the same thing (and Cap to a lesser extent). That's why I ask where you and Pendaran place his limit, since it goes beyond stupid as is anyway, so any line is going to be arbitrary when it's something he regularly does by feats.

[Pendaran]

The Deathstroke analogy doesnt work in this case. Deathstroke fails to blitz and gets tagged by slower people /all the time/. From batman to nightwing to green arrow to like half the titans. Even in issues where he does indeed tag the flash he gets tagged by Batgirl or Green Arrow dodges his sword slash.

Works just fine. Deathstroke repeatedly, almost perfectly in fact, does a particular thing when fighting people which he otherwise has nothing to show he has the capacity to do. Like you're saying right now.

Wolverine does a thing when fighting other people, nowhere as perfectly, outside of which he apparently has nothing to show he has the capacity such that no one advocating for him can provide a single supporting feat for a character who has existed for decades as a major starring character in his own multiple long running series, miniseries, multiple team books, so they default to no limits arguments that would not fly for any other character.

As it stands he cuts the metal of durable sentinels with ease, hulk far more often than not, namor, colossus once in a while (he seems to be like the most resistant brick to wolvie for some reason), thing at least twice, and wendigo (dating to even his first appearance that you mention often).

There's already been a list of the variety of high end speedsters Deathstroke messes with, and now you're citing "the part in his first appearance where he cuts Wendigo counts, the part where he can't cut the Hulk doesn't" as part of your argument. Also, Wolverine is not exactly in an exclusive or even rarefied club as far as cutting Wendigo. A variety of people have cut Wendigo. To the point that as compared to, say, the Hulk, Wendigo actually seems to be one of the things not so resistant to that sort of deal. And while you might say "the Wendigo varies in power!" The Wendigo sure does, but getting cut seems to carry across those variations pretty well.

Theres obviously a limit since him cutting thanos, and gladiator and king thor is beyond even those consistent feats he's had.

Your only logic is "he does it because he does it" so there is not any limit you can actually ascribe to that. Wolverine damaging superdurable bricks is done no more consistently than Deathstroke tagging high end speedsters.

If a character does something often and has very little to contradict it, why should we just throw it out?

If a character has zero demonstrated capacity to do a thing outside of fights, has no relevant superstrength to back that thing, has no relevant showings of power or capacity to back that thing especially compared to the durability performances of the people he is affecting, is decades old with past a certain point basically multiple monthly appearances for most of those decades, and actually has a few showings that would more logically fit with his utter lack of capacity to do a thing, if a character even manages to squeeze in a few showings that would be more in line with how little they have to justify other ones, we would throw it out just fine. Because for instance this:

Regarding hulk i have no problem having wolvies limit be savage hulks skin.

Is you being completely arbitrary. I can at least go "based on what we see comic book peak human strength do, a guy who clocks in around that with unbreakable claws cutting through steel and that kind of junk fits in pretty easily".

You are going "Wolverine cuts the Hulk because Wolverine cuts the Hulk."

This is where the deathstroke example utterly fails. Deathstroke has a plethora of feats that contradict his FTL reflexes. every fistfight he has with a street leveler contradicts the flash tagging. This is not at all similar to Wolverine.

Relative to Wolverine's massive career, his examples of cutting the Hulk, the Thing, what have you, are miniscule compared to his operating on capacity not remotely near that level such that you can't even provide one supporting showing so much as argue that you don't have to. This is where your argument utterly fails. If all you can say is "because he does it in fights", then that's where you are.

Wolverine operates at a particular level of strength, speed, skill. His claws are not magic cut everything vorpal swords. What, exactly, has he done to ignore or bypass the Hulk's durability showings? Your answer so far is "he cut the Hulk, therefore his cutting power is beyond those durability showings".

Or, if you don't like the entirely applicable for the paucity of your reasoning Deathstroke comparison. So, Captain America, a guy who edges Wolverine in base capacity outside of a healing factor. A guy who wields something, even better than Wolverine's claws. When he uses it to back his striking power, he's managed to get an effect on all sorts of high end bricks. Of course, there are a few times where he completely hasn't, to the point where he outright proclaims that he can't. To the point where he's going that someone like Armadillo is someone he has to attack the joints of and even then doesn't really accomplish much. And even more pointedly, his non high end brick fight showings nowhere remotely show the level of capacity involved in his high end brick fights.

That doesn't matter, right?

[Pendaran]

Nope, I haven't presented an opinion of my own; I explained where people were coming from and that you were arguing past them, and asked where you personally put his limit at, which you are avoiding saying, instead attempting to prove me wrong to distract from that (even though I have not presented a set opinion).

So, out of curiosity, what is your opinion on this matter?

[Pendaran]

The difference between a guy cutting through a girder or a car with a single swipe (which he does all of the time, or equivalents), and lifting/benching even multiple thousands of times is like a difference of a magnitude of thousands. One is a level of exaggeration; one is so far beyond impossible that it's laughable.

It comes from the whole "super awesome ninjas can slice through anything via skills" trope, but is taken to ridiculous levels beyond that with Wolverine. As a comparison, even though it's really stupid silly with someone like Raiden in Metal Gear Rising, he, at least, is combining low end Class 100 strength, very supersonic swinging speed, a fully metal body (so that the path of least resistance isn't flesh and skin), and blades that have something going on outside of just being a hard, strong blade. And it's still silly. Wolverine has none of that and regularly accomplishes the same thing (and Cap to a lesser extent). That's why I ask where you and Pendaran place his limit, since it goes beyond stupid as is anyway, so any line is going to be arbitrary when it's something he regularly does by feats.

You say you are not trying to advance an opinion on the subject, yet this comes off as disingenuous when you post

That's why I ask where you and Pendaran place his limit, since it goes beyond stupid as is anyway, so any line is going to be arbitrary when it's something he regularly does by feats.

This is you, arguing that Wolverine cutting the Hulk is basically just fine, since Wolverine cuts through steel, since both are stupid, accepting one and denying the other is arbitrary.

Here's the problem with that:

People in Wolverine's strength/general effect bracket do things like break guns in half in their hands, break sizable water pipes in half after a week of deprivation, bust their way out of chains they don't remotely have the leverage to do, snap swords in half with a kick of their bare foot, break handcuffs with little effort and a wide variety of other sundry.

If you gave someone doing that unbreakable claws? Cutting through steel seems neither implausible nor arbitrary. Wouldn't frankly stand out as something they could do, after all, they do all the above without unbreakable claws.

If they then cut through the Hulk? Both those things.

You're at this point basically going "since this thing would be silly in terms of science, everything silly should be accepted". And okay, Wolverine can cut Gladiator and that time not cutting the Sentry when the Sentry took hold of his claws and was forcing them back with his own strength no less, not Wolverines, is a low showing.

After all

That's why I ask where you and Pendaran place his limit, since it goes beyond stupid as is anyway, so any line is going to be arbitrary when it's something he regularly does by feats.

It goes beyond stupid anyway, and Wolverine regularly cuts high end bricks by feats.

[abmccray]

So, out of curiosity, what is your opinion on this matter?

I'm reading you guys' arguments as to where it stands based on feats to formulate one. You have yet to present somewhere to place it; you're just criticizing other people's arguments in lieu of posting an opinion of your own (and asking people who question that to post their opinions so you can again focus on criticizing them), but still doing that based on arbitrary limit setting, which is why I asked for a counter-placement.

Also, again, "breaking a gun," where at least super strong person is braced against something else, takes, like, and order of thousands less strength + speed than jumping in the air and swiping through a steel construction girder even if one metal is stronger than the other.

One writer attempted to explain it as Wolverine's blades being so sharpened to such an ultra fine point where they cut through things they weren't supposed to, but that's not consistent either, so...

[Pendaran]

In fact, let me go one better with this because we're using the word "regularly" to avoid any need for otherwise showing capacity. How many times have Wolverine and the Savage Hulk fought? In those fights in how many of them has Wolverine cut the guy?

Since:

Regarding hulk i have no problem having wolvies limit be savage hulks skin.

If this is his limit, and for people advocating for Wolverine being immune to remote standards for evidence there is not in fact any reason to say it is by their own arguments, how many times has he managed to pull that off?

As I imagine this is likely to get "you're singling this out from all the times he does it to others". This is, apparently, the theoretical "limit", past which Gladiator is somehow too far. Why is this the limit at all? How many times did this have to happen for this to be the limit, not past doing this?

[Pendaran]

I'm reading you guys' arguments as to where it stands based on feats to formulate one. You have yet to present somewhere to place it; you're just criticizing other people's arguments in lieu of posting an opinion of your own (and asking people who question that to post their opinions so you can again focus on criticizing them), but still doing that based on arbitrary limit setting, which is why I asked for a counter-placement.

Also, again, "breaking a gun," where at least super strong person is braced against something else, takes, like, and order of thousands less strength + speed than jumping in the air and swiping through a steel construction girder even if one metal is stronger than the other.

One writer attempted to explain it as Wolverine's blades being so sharpened to such an ultra fine point where they cut through things they weren't supposed to, but that's not consistent either, so...

It doesn't work to post this:

That's why I ask where you and Pendaran place his limit, since it goes beyond stupid as is anyway, so any line is going to be arbitrary when it's something he regularly does by feats.

But claim that you both are not advocating for Wolverine's capacity in this sense, nor have an opinion on the matter.

you're just criticizing other people's arguments in lieu of posting an opinion of your own

Posted one a few times now.

Also, again, "breaking a gun," where at least super strong person is braced against something else, takes, like, and order of thousands less strength + speed than jumping in the air and swiping through a steel construction girder even if one metal is stronger than the other.

What do you think, to specify the character, Batman is substantially braced against when he takes a gun in his hand and breaks it with little effort? When his leg is flying through the air to kick a sword in half, what is his other leg especially braced against? Do you think there is an off panel narration we miss each time about how braced Batman is?

When Batman is kicking through a tree, punching people through reinforced steel doors, tackling them through brick walls, it's all okay because he's braced?

You've reached a point of "because science" with regards comics, to try and claim that since one thing is silly by science, we should accept whatever other thing is silly by science. When there is almost nothing in comics that isn't silly by science, so by that logic..

Can Wolverine shank Gladiator or not? And before you say "no", or more likely, don't actually answer the question and claim still you have no opinion, how many times has Wolverine had to cut the Savage Hulk for it to be arbitrary to deny that he can?

[The Dork Knight]

The difference between a guy cutting through a girder or a car with a single swipe (which he does all of the time, or equivalents), and lifting/benching even multiple thousands of times is like a difference of a magnitude of thousands. One is a level of exaggeration; one is so far beyond impossible that it's laughable.

Ok so. What example would you prefer? Daredevil bending prison bars with his bare hands ? Batman straight up wrenching them off the window?

Is that close enough ?

It comes from the whole "super awesome ninjas can slice through anything via skills" trope, but is taken to ridiculous levels beyond that with Wolverine. As a comparison, even though it's really stupid silly with someone like Raiden in Metal Gear Rising, he, at least, is combining low end Class 100 strength, very supersonic swinging speed, a fully metal body (so that the path of least resistance isn't flesh and skin), and blades that have something going on outside of just being a hard, strong blade. And it's still silly. Wolverine has none of that and regularly accomplishes the same thing (and Cap to a lesser extent). That's why I ask where you and Pendaran place his limit, since it goes beyond stupid as is anyway, so any line is going to be arbitrary when it's something he regularly does by feats.

No the line is not arbitrary by Rumbles rules. For a character with his number of appearances , feats that don't involve fighting other (stronger ) people take precedence over feats that do

So his " level " is " cuts through steel girders with ease " .Unless, as I said earlier , he's cut through a nuke proof door or something ( often enough ) , then that's his level

Same as Captain Americas level is " cuts through a tank " and not " knocks out Hulk in tandem with Spider-Man's punches "

[The Dork Knight]

Actually the Deathstroke argument is better. Logan and Cap actually explicitly have feats of failing to cut/hurt the super durable crowd

Post crisis Deathstroke kinda doesn't have ....any instance of failing to tag a speedster .

And the guy has far fewer appearances than Logan . So the couple of times he fought Batman would just be him jobbing . The couple of times he got shot : meh he just didn't care enough what with his armour and all.

The couple (more )times he struggled against Nightwing ? Same as Logan vs Collosus . They appeared in the same team book after all , bound to be more jobbing than usual for Slade...as heh for Logan

Besides he beat them all anyway ( unlike Logan ) . He's outright proclaimed ( and been noted by others ) to be " faster " where it counts . He's even got an " enhanced reflexes /90% brain explanation " that occasionally allows him to do bizarre stuff like see Atoms .

The only thing he doesn't have is independent nanosecond feats or something . The only thing Logan doesn't have is independent feats for cutting .....at least a mountain or something

So why should Deathstrokes feats count any less , especially given his ( far) fewer appearances ?

[The Dork Knight]

Also he had a far far shorter solo series the majority of which he spent depowered . So basically ....team books where he tags speedsters and pummels or at least wins against most street levellers . There's honestly a far weaker case against him than Logan beyond the fact that they both have an appreciable number of appearances to look at their feats beyond " performances against others "

[abmccray]

Ok so. What example would you prefer? Daredevil bending prison bars with his bare hands ? Batman straight up wrenching them off the window?

Is that close enough ?




No the line is not arbitrary by Rumbles rules. For a character with his number of appearances , feats that don't involve fighting other (stronger ) people take precedence over feats that do

So his " level " is " cuts through steel girders with ease " .Unless, as I said earlier , he's cut through a nuke proof door or something ( often enough ) , then that's his level

Same as Captain Americas level is " cuts through a tank " and not " knocks out Hulk in tandem with Spider-Man's punches "

The line with Rumbles rules is consistency regarding appearances. Feats against other people and things count if a) it is consistent, and b) there is nothing nullifying the consistency, combined with c) if it goes along with character presentation.

For Wolverine's magical cutting ability due to his magical weapon, there's a gradient scale that goes something like:

- Cuts through swords (can be done in real life, feasible)
- Cuts through larger and denser pieces of metal (can't be done by a human in real life, but, since he's comic book peak human, whatever)
- Cuts through particularly dense but not bulletproof superheroes and villains

----- Presentation cut off line; he's presented as a comic book peak human, so that's where that presentation ends ---------

- Slices through cars immediately
- Slices through armored trucks immediately
- Cuts through steel doors/building girders/ultra thick pieces of metal
- Cuts through Sentinels that are armored that much
- Cuts through bulletproof superheroes/villains with that kind of durability
- Cuts through superheroes and villains who have more than that durability
- Hulk's skin
- Gladiator

The way Rumbles works with consistency is not that you arbitrarily stop at the last OBJECT he's shown cutting through and compare people to that object by default. It only works that way if he lacks consistency against greater things. And, in comics, the only thing that's typically shown as greater than metals are...characters (unless there were scenes of him cutting through diamond walls or something, which is unreasonable to ask for). But, if, say, he cut Gladiator in every issue of X-Men, as hyperbole, and was never shown not to be able to cut anyone lesser than Gladiator, then that would just be "how he worked," even if it made no sense. I'm not saying it's the case; I'm just saying that "cuts object" is not an automatic stopping point, and feats against people work as long as (a) they're consistent, and (b) there aren't overriding counter examples. Nor is "presentation," because, if you're using that, you probably have to stop at a lower point than you'd otherwise.

Even though Batman has made people like Wonderwoman or crossover Hulk "feel it" with his punches or kicks, he's bounced off of people like Bane and Killer Croc COMBINED with him not being presented as such, so it's counted as bullshit. Deathstroke is consistently only slightly faster than Batman, so he's not catching a Flash. Where is Wolverine's consistent cutting and stopping power with his claws? Is he stopped by vibranium, for instance? How much? Is it harder to cut Hulk's outer skin than vibranium? Those are the questions that you ask to rate him by.

[The Dork Knight]

Buuut since he's not cut Gladiator in every single issue of X men ever ....and in fact failed to cut the far less durable Collosus ....and this is basically the point at which you went " let's ignore inanimate objects for characters durability from this point forth ", the last stop being steel girders and the ilk , then that's that. He can cut through steel girders and things similarly durable

That's it . That's the " overriding counter example " you are talking of, there.

For there to be an argument from this point forth , he would have , in your own words , needed to cut Gladiator / Hulk in "every issue ever"

Since that's not the case , that's that then

[Pendaran]

You know, while I'm there, since this thread has become some "make a claim a character is powerful enough to do a thing, do not need to provide anything to support it, anyone questioning it has to provide things".. thing. I've been looking up on the Wolverine/Savage Hulk fights.

Taking out non canonical stuff like Marvel Fanfare or Adventures of the X-men? Or ones where Wolverine is a skrull with bone claws? There are barely any.

This, you might think, would put more weight on their first encounter, but like someone said, hey, that was years ago, Wolverine has been written above that since then, surely! Here is a retelling of that fight from the ancient before times of... 2006.

Here is how incapable Wolverine is of cutting the Savage Hulk:

http://imgur.com/zqUTvld

http://imgur.com/tqAlwq1

So, low showing? Fake memory implant? (I'm willing to hold out for fake memory implant, no snark) The retelling I have found where he manages to cut the Hulk... was a dream sequence Wolverine turned into Ultimate Wolverine at the end of and got ripped in half.

I'll hope that this thread has not reached a point where people look at the scans, go "no, he totally cut him" despite Wolverine himself making the contrast in his own narration that his claws don't work on the Hulk, but do work on Wendigo, just like in the original version of that fight where his claws don't work on the Hulk, but do work on Wendigo.

[Pendaran]

I'm going to rummage around for Hulk/Wolverine, Six Hours, maybe that works out better.