More PIS required for their fights: Superman vs Batman OR Hulk vs Wolverine ?

[Beadle]

In fact if he can in fact cut right through Hulk and company , why do even his glancing blows not outright slice Captain America and Datedevil in half ?

While I actually agree that Logan slicing Hulk (those are not monofilament blades or anything so weirdly esoteric) is PIS, I don't think this is a good argument.

For one thing, Cap and DD are sufficiently faster and more skilled than Logan so as to make sure they are ONLY slight glancing blows with the claws.

For another thing, if they weren't glancing blows, they WOULD totally slice up Cap or DD just fine.

But honestly, when fighting guys like Steve or Matt, I don't remember Logan ever actually trying to cut them.

[Pendaran]

There's only so far skill can cover them if those claws are slicing out with what amounts to class 100 striking power is the problem.

While I actually agree that Logan slicing Hulk (those are not monofilament blades or anything so weirdly esoteric) is PIS

Well it seems so far to not have happened as many times as you might have thought anyway.

[Anarchist]

But honestly, when fighting guys like Steve or Matt, I don't remember Logan ever actually trying to cut them.

Here Logan slices him in the gut

[abmccray]

No, the answer is, comic book peak humans do things on a scale which, give them unbreakable claws, given the way they already treat metal, guns, trees, brick walls, slicing various things in half or apart with unbreakable claws (or hurling an indestructible shield through them) would stand in just fine with what they do. Your argument for why it would not is "because science".

Oh, also that whenever they do those things, they've been taking time to brace themselves. Despite not.



They break it. They kick down and through trees. They flying tackle people through brick walls. They snap swords in half. They break chains. They break handcuffs.

And while not breaking, they punch people right through reinforced steel doors such that the door comes down with their body.

Unbreakable claws makes very little difference at these levels, really - they are more of an excuse as to why HE doesn't break than anything. Having other properties on TOP of that (ie. molecule sharpness, which one author tried to use to hand wave it) is what would make the difference.

Breaking handcuffs - 800 PSI
Kicking through tree - 700 - 1000 PSI
Brick wall - hugely variable - 1000 - 2000 PSI
Snapping swords in half - highly variable - 100 - 2000 PSI
Concrete - 5000 PSI

Slicing through the thickness of metals in Sentinels or girders - 100,000 - millions of PSI



So, according to you, the distinction is "because science" as opposed to the obvious "one takes so much more strength than the other as to be exponential levels of difference."

So even with someone explaining to you, nicely, in multiple ways, the huge gulf of difference between standard peak human feats and Wolverine's claws cutting through things they aren't supposed to, you're refusing to engage or acknowledge that difference. There's not even any point in continuing this line of discussion with you as you're refusing to admit the gulf of difference between things there, or try to attempt to understand the perspective people are coming from, which is the entire point of discussion.

The one outlier on the peak human is the "steel door" thing, which can either be just as B.S. and a jump as Wolverine's cutting, or bad art as in one of those "it was supposed to knock the door off the hinges, but the artist drew it like this," or "the artist made the steel too thick" type of things. But yes, denting through, like a bank vault or something would be the same kind of huge leap between standard peak human feats (which are typically 2-4x what an actual person could possibly do), yes.

Edited for clarity.

[The Dork Knight]

While I actually agree that Logan slicing Hulk (those are not monofilament blades or anything so weirdly esoteric) is PIS, I don't think this is a good argument.

For one thing, Cap and DD are sufficiently faster and more skilled than Logan so as to make sure they are ONLY slight glancing blows with the claws.

For another thing, if they weren't glancing blows, they WOULD totally slice up Cap or DD just fine.

But honestly, when fighting guys like Steve or Matt, I don't remember Logan ever actually trying to cut them.

No my point isn't that they wouldn't be killed by a direct hit ( they will be )

My point is , since science is being used and all, a fraction of a fraction of Hulk cutting force should totally shred Captain America

[Pendaran]

Those are definitely some levels of analysis that have nothing to do with comics nor are generally understood by the people involved in creating them, you bet, and that you have to invoke for "screwing about with metal is a level so beyond anything that it is just as silly as cutting the Hulk".

This is verging on those mathematically defining planet busting arguments. And by verging on, I mean we're right back there.

So even with someone explaining to you, nicely, in multiple ways, the huge gulf of difference between standard peak human feats and Wolverine's claws cutting through things they aren't supposed to, you're refusing to engage or acknowledge that difference. There's not even any point in continuing this line of discussion with you as you're refusing to admit the gulf of difference between things there, or try to attempt to understand the perspective people are coming from, which is the entire point of discussion.

So, you continue to have no opinion on the validity of Wolverine's performances?

There's not even any point in continuing this line of discussion with you as you're refusing to admit the gulf of difference between things there, or try to attempt to understand the perspective people are coming from, which is the entire point of discussion.

We've reached a point on a comic book debate board where the entire idea is that we look at showings for things like "what has a character done to support doing this thing they have done in these fights", and look at them from comics, where the reasons not to do that range from scientific analysis to.. pretty much basically that.

When you've repeatedly either not answered questions, or claimed that you were not advocating for the validity of a character's showings despite your own posts, when was this ever a discussion?

Or: do you think that Wolverine shaking Gladiator is legitimate? If not, how is that consistent with anything you have said, at all? It's just as "stupid" and something we should see is orders of magnitude beyond the possible. Wolverine's justification for cutting superdurable bricks is a mix of using science to say "it's so ridiculous that denying it is arbitrary" and "because he does it a lot".

How is he not cutting Gladiator?

That you refuse to acknowledge that as regards presentation in comics that there is a difference between cutting up and breaking metal, and cutting up the Hulk, whose durability feats are wildly beyond, y'know, metal, is you refusing to even attempt to understand that as a basic concept.

That you refuse to acknowledge that your logic underscores "then Slade can hit near lightspeed and up bricks" just fine, renders the consistency of this discussion certainly odd.

[Beadle]

PSI is pressure. To get from 2000 PSI to 100,000 PSI is just a case of the claws being less than a 50th the width of a fist, which they are. I'm happy with Logan being able to do that, given other CBPH nonsense.

However, Hulk's skin is not like a girder. In fact I'm pretty sure if we looked hard enough we could find examples of Hulk being hit straight through a girder, with the girder being ripped completely in two, and the Hulk being completely unharmed.

We seem to be using "can cut steel" as an argument for "can cut Hulk", when in fact they are completely different things.

[Pendaran]

I mean, for some reason, most of the time, the standard has been "board about feats", and we've only worked with a character's fights when that is basically the majority of their existence. But Wolverine has existed for decades. Decades. Of multiple monthly in and monthly out showings. And this is 8 pages now of... arguing science.. arguing that just because Wolverine has failed to do a thing, on multiple occasions even, that would sit just fine with the things he is more regularly shown doing as his general ruck and run, they are still the low showings.

No one arguing for Wolverine, or "I'm not arguing for Wolverine, I'm just saying why you are wrong to argue against Wolverine", can provide the one feat outside these fights. Even one. We've reached a "I don't have to back my claims with anything, I just have to say why I don't agree with you questioning them" place. Y'all have made a claim about Wolverine being able to do something. What backs this up other than "because he does it"?

Surely, in decades of Wolverine, there is at least one showing of him operating on a scale of potency that would justify his brick fights.

[Pendaran]

PSI is pressure. To get from 2000 PSI to 100,000 PSI is just a case of the claws being less than a 50th the width of a fist, which they are. I'm happy with Logan being able to do that, given other CBPH nonsense.

However, Hulk's skin is not like a girder. In fact I'm pretty sure if we looked hard enough we could find examples of Hulk being hit straight through a girder, with the girder being ripped completely in two, and the Hulk being completely unharmed.

We seem to be using "can cut steel" as an argument for "can cut Hulk", when in fact they are completely different things.

According to abmcray, he's not actually arguing for the Hulk being cut at all, he's instead saying that cutting through steel is so comparatively ridiculous, that it would be arbitrary to argue against the Hulk being cut.

This is.. somehow.. not arguing for the Hulk being cut.

[Pendaran]

No my point isn't that they wouldn't be killed by a direct hit ( they will be )

My point is , since science is being used and all, a fraction of a fraction of Hulk cutting force should totally shred Captain America

Scientific analysis of comics is only applicable when it proves the thing the person wanted to say.

edit: and it really sharply outlines the problem with anything beyond "are these things roughly close enough conceptually?" Cutting through steel with unbreakable weapons is a really short conceptual journey from... everything comic book peak humans do considering what they break and lift and bend, and just simply crap Wolverine has managed physically. Cutting through steel to.. cutting up the Hulk, is a vast, unsupportable conceptual journey.

[abmccray]

PSI is pressure. To get from 2000 PSI to 100,000 PSI is just a case of the claws being less than a 50th the width of a fist, which they are. I'm happy with Logan being able to do that, given other CBPH nonsense.

However, Hulk's skin is not like a girder. In fact I'm pretty sure if we looked hard enough we could find examples of Hulk being hit straight through a girder, with the girder being ripped completely in two, and the Hulk being completely unharmed.

We seem to be using "can cut steel" as an argument for "can cut Hulk", when in fact they are completely different things.

Not really, it's quite a bit more than that; I'm just using shorthand. Ultra thin pressurized water streams have to have that pressure to create a "cut" at that point of impact with their size. If it was fist sized, then it would be an entirely different pressure. I just used one standard to show the general gulf.

This whole side-discussion started because some people couldn't understand why people were saying what Wolverine cuts goes beyond standard 2x - 4x human peak human stuff (outside of something like punching through steel doors), into the realm of superhuman nonsense, which it does. It was clearing up why you need actual FEATS for or against with superhumans as opposed to just saying "he's peak human so it doesn't make sense." There have been a lot of projections and putting words in people's mouths between that, but that's basically what it comes down to.

We aren't, or at least I'm not, using a "cut steel = cut Hulk" argument, other people just keep saying that's the argument. I'm simply saying that since Wolverine's claws make him able to do some superhuman cutting, then "peak human" is not the definition of what defines his limits and one has to be drawn via feats against characters that it has or has not worked against. Try to cut through (pun not intended) people explaining what other people are supposedly "intending" to say.

[The Dork Knight]

While Wolverine has failed to cut the Savage Hulk, the Sentry, and Colossus, when did he fail to cut Thor? He totally cut Thor in the reigning! (which, canonical until Thor prevented that future from happening)

He barely scratched Thor in the three parter . Though well the fact that he did in fact draw blood ....probably shows he "cut" him , in the very literal sense of the word

I was thinking more " right through Namors chest" type of cutting though this is PIS as well

[Pendaran]

He barely scratched Thor in the three parter . Though well the fact that he did in fact draw blood ....probably shows he "cut" him , in the very literal sense of the word

I was thinking more " right through Namors chest" type of cutting though this is PIS as well

He drew blood, there y'go. And Thor has flown in suns after all. Welp, the Gladiator showing is now totally fine then.

[Beadle]

According to abmcray, he's not actually arguing for the Hulk being cut at all, he's instead saying that cutting through steel is so comparatively ridiculous, that it would be arbitrary to argue against the Hulk being cut.

This is.. somehow.. not arguing for the Hulk being cut.

Ah, well, I've gotta admit I was losing track.

In that case, as I said, if CBPH guys can get to 2000 PSI with their fists, then a CBPH guy with something less than a 50th the width of a fist, like... just as a crazy example plucked from absolutely nowhere... an adamantium claw... could comfortably hit pressures in excess of 100K PSI. Because that's how pressure works. I'm not going all sciencey - just the basics. So, using abmcray's figures, cutting a steel girder is perfectly in line with CBPH.

But I'll reiterate that this does not make it impossible to argue against Hulk-cutting.

Someone who can do things consistent with a CBPH guy can.... do things consistent with a CBPH guy. He can't do things which are inconsistent with a CBPH guy, like Hulk-cutting.

[Pendaran]

We aren't, or at least I'm not, using a "cut steel = cut Hulk" argument, other people just keep saying that's the argument.

This is you, verbatim:

The difference between a guy cutting through a girder or a car with a single swipe (which he does all of the time, or equivalents), and lifting/benching even multiple thousands of times is like a difference of a magnitude of thousands. One is a level of exaggeration; one is so far beyond impossible that it's laughable.

It comes from the whole "super awesome ninjas can slice through anything via skills" trope, but is taken to ridiculous levels beyond that with Wolverine. As a comparison, even though it's really stupid silly with someone like Raiden in Metal Gear Rising, he, at least, is combining low end Class 100 strength, very supersonic swinging speed, a fully metal body (so that the path of least resistance isn't flesh and skin), and blades that have something going on outside of just being a hard, strong blade. And it's still silly. Wolverine has none of that and regularly accomplishes the same thing (and Cap to a lesser extent).

When you say that, you can say "but I'm not saying Wolverine can cut the Hulk because he can cut steel" as many times as you want, the only thing you are doing then is ignoring the logic you put forward in your own posts.

When you say this:

That's why I ask where you and Pendaran place his limit, since it goes beyond stupid as is anyway, so any line is going to be arbitrary when it's something he regularly does by feats.

That is you, saying Wolverine can cut the Hulk, because Wolverine can cut steel, thereby making his feats "beyond stupid", that putting a line on them is "arbitrary"

Those are your posts. That you keep saying this isn't your argument anyway does nothing but put you at odds with recognizing your own statements and their meaning. The only logical conclusion of your statements is that Wolverine can cut the Hulk, because putting a line on his performances is arbitrary, and science shows they are "beyond stupid" anyway.