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  1. #121
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Ah, well, I've gotta admit I was losing track.

    In that case, as I said, if CBPH guys can get to 2000 PSI with their fists, then a CBPH guy with something less than a 50th the width of a fist, like... just as a crazy example plucked from absolutely nowhere... an adamantium claw... could comfortably hit pressures in excess of 100K PSI. Because that's how pressure works. I'm not going all sciencey - just the basics. So, using abmcray's figures, cutting a steel girder is perfectly in line with CBPH.

    But I'll reiterate that this does not make it impossible to argue against Hulk-cutting.

    Someone who can do things consistent with a CBPH guy can.... do things consistent with a CBPH guy. He can't do things which are inconsistent with a CBPH guy, like Hulk-cutting.
    I don't really truck in the PSI logic in the first place, as it gets into levels of analysis that just have nothing to do with comics. And we're already stretching "anything to do with comics" pretty hard when we go "we can debate something to which the answer is 'whatever the writer wants because power and capacity is actually meaningless.'" Stretch something far enough, it snaps.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 09-22-2015 at 09:11 AM.

  2. #122
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    This is you, verbatim:



    When you say that, you can say "but I'm not saying Wolverine can cut the Hulk because he can cut steel" as many times as you want, the only thing you are doing then is ignoring the logic you put forward in your own posts.

    When you say this:



    That is you, saying Wolverine can cut the Hulk, because Wolverine can cut steel, thereby making his feats "beyond stupid", that putting a line on them is "arbitrary"

    Those are your posts. That you keep saying this isn't your argument anyway does nothing but put you at odds with recognizing your own statements and their meaning.
    Yeah, no, step back outside of your argument and look what you're quoting here instead of what you thought was being said when you replied to it. Because I'm guessing, but probably right, that you're the only one getting that from those posts here. There is nothing at all in there that intends anything outside of what I said earlier, which was "rate it against character feats because the claws are superhuman." You're arguing a strawman here.

  3. #123
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    Unbreakable claws makes very little difference at these levels, really - they are more of an excuse as to why HE doesn't break than anything. Having other properties on TOP of that (ie. molecule sharpness, which one author tried to use to hand wave it) is what would make the difference.

    Breaking handcuffs - 800 PSI
    Kicking through tree - 700 - 1000 PSI
    Brick wall - hugely variable - 1000 - 2000 PSI
    Snapping swords in half - highly variable - 100 - 2000 PSI
    Concrete - 5000 PSI
    Cool, so I guess Sheamus could brogue Kick through a tree, and some of the easier brick walls. And Big Show can casually Punch through all but the toughest brick walls. CBPH here they come.
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  4. #124
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    Yeah, no, step back outside of your argument and look what you're quoting here instead of what you thought was being said when you replied to it. Because I'm guessing, but probably right, that you're the only one getting that from those posts here. There is nothing at all in there that intends anything outside of what I said earlier, which was "rate it against character feats because the claws are superhuman." You're arguing a strawman here.
    They're not greatly more superhuman than the things we see peak humans busting out on any conceptual level of note, presuming one does not journey far enough away from comics into levels of scientific analysis that have nothing to do with those comics.

    Why by this:

    That's why I ask where you and Pendaran place his limit, since it goes beyond stupid as is anyway, so any line is going to be arbitrary when it's something he regularly does by feats.
    Are you not saying Wolverine can cut the Hulk? That's you, saying he regularly does a thing by feats, and that any line on Wolverine is arbitrary. That science shows his claws are magic, and therefore as flowing from that..

  5. #125
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Cool, so I guess Sheamus could brogue Kick through a tree, and some of the easier brick walls. And Big Show can casually Punch through all but the toughest brick walls. CBPH here they come.
    Just so it doesn't get lost, you were asking for more modern showings of the Hulk not getting cut as far as making a compartmentalized durability argument/that showing with him and Wolverine was old. If you can find it through all... this. I put up some scans of that encounter being updated to 2006, and Wolverine once again, not cutting the Hulk.

    (if that's a fake memory implant, prove me wrong internet!)

  6. #126
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Cool, so I guess Sheamus could brogue Kick through a tree, and some of the easier brick walls. And Big Show can casually Punch through all but the toughest brick walls. CBPH here they come.
    If they had Wolverine's unbreakable skeleton, and could possibly brace themselves, it would be possible. Sadly, in real life, their bones and joints would get the force of the impact and they'd just crush themselves. The other thing you have to wave away in comic books. Or with Drago's 4 tons of force in Rocky.

    Also, we have to assume that gauge doesn't work with the same scaling system they use to inflate wrestlers' heights. The best strikers ever barely break 1000

  7. #127
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    They're not greatly more superhuman than the things we see peak humans busting out on any conceptual level of note, presuming one does not journey far enough away from comics into levels of scientific analysis that have nothing to do with those comics.

    Why by this:



    Are you not saying Wolverine can cut the Hulk? That's you, saying he regularly does a thing by feats, and that any line on Wolverine is arbitrary. That science shows his claws are magic, and therefore as flowing from that..
    No, that's saying that what he regularly does by feats is what he's gauged on (and as stated in other posts, weighed against what he doesn't accomplish). When I am knowledgeable about feats and have a strong stance on something, I state it directly instead of beating around the bush. You're projecting in how you're reading what you quoted.

  8. #128
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    If they had Wolverine's unbreakable skeleton, and could possibly brace themselves, it would be possible. Sadly, in real life, their bones and joints would get the force of the impact and they'd just crush themselves. The other thing you have to wave away in comic books. Or with Drago's 4 tons of force in Rocky.

    Also, we have to assume that gauge doesn't work with the same scaling system they use to inflate wrestlers' heights. The best strikers ever barely break 1000
    You understand you talk about waving things away in comic books, while saying that because science shows how ridiculous something is, that is part of why putting limits on a thing is arbitrary. You're also into "also we have to assume". You're also again into "clearly they were bracing themselves all those times", when you've even been given a Wolverine strength performance, going outside of Batman or Cap, where, nope.

  9. #129
    Pro Mutant Anarchist's Avatar
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    I think the latest encounter of the two was during Jason Aaron's Hulk-run, in which Wolverine was accompanied by the Thing.
    While he did draw some blood it ended this way for him
    Last edited by Anarchist; 09-22-2015 at 09:28 AM.

  10. #130
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I think the latest encoutner of the two was during Jason Aaron's Hulk-run, in which Wolverine was accompanied by the Thing.
    While he did draw some blood it ended this way for him
    That's not the Savage Hulk, that's one of the at that somewhat to sometimes significantly weaker intellectually coherent Hulks.

  11. #131
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    given how deep those claws are going into his own head it looks like his claws can cut through his adamantium skeleton if enough force is behind them. :P
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  12. #132
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Just again to review where we are. Wolverine cuts high end superdurable bricks. Outside of doing so, he does dead level nothing even remotely on the scale of doing so (as far as any feats anyone has put forward, despite numerous requests). Ontop of that, he actually has a few showings where he completely fails to cut some superdurable bricks, even including one he has otherwise cut, at least in some incarnations. He is a character that, to put it mildly, has a decades long career of hordes of showings and appearances. To the point that I think you have to get into Spiderman, Superman or Batman or their ilk to start blowing past the guy.

    How does this equate to "therefore his cutting superdurable bricks is so valid, that any thread with Wolverine should have to specify if those showings count, because there is no basis for discounting them"?
    Last edited by Pendaran; 09-22-2015 at 09:39 AM.

  13. #133
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    You understand you talk about waving things away in comic books, while saying that because science shows how ridiculous something is, that is part of why putting limits on a thing is arbitrary. You're also into "also we have to assume". You're also again into "clearly they were bracing themselves all those times", when you've even been given a Wolverine strength performance, going outside of Batman or Cap, where, nope.
    I don't even know what you're saying in this post. Look, just because I stepped in to explain what other people were attempting to say doesn't mean I'm automatically on a "side." There's more than 'for' and 'against' in a discussion, and ever since I replied to you you've been projecting what I'm saying in posts, conflating what I'm saying with other people said, arguing things out of context, and taking jokey responses with emoticons after them about real life things as proof for some other reply you had pages ago. What are you attempting to do here? The only reason I responded in the first place was because you were loading on other people by arguing past what they said, which you have now loaded on to me.

    The only direct stance I have is "Wolverine's claws do bullshit that goes way beyond comic book peak human bullshit." Any discussions of PSI and such were a reeallllly loose illustration/explanation of how much more ridiculous him cutting through even stuff you normally see him cut is. Things like Raiden, etc. were examples of how other somewhat comparable cutters (even though Raiden is a bit better) are built, which is generally far above peak human (ie. low Class 100 like Raiden), have even more BS weapons (super-micro edges/edges that saw at ridiculous invisible speeds to make up for the pressure) or have other martial arts karate Kid type BS explanations.

    Other than that, I've just been looking at the scans people posted.

  14. #134
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    The only direct stance I have is "Wolverine's claws do bullshit that goes way beyond comic book peak human bullshit."
    And so far the basis for saying that trucks in stuff that has little to do with comics as far as analysis, an analysis that people demonstrate the faulty application of even just on its own terms and applies limiters to things peak humans have done that were not going on with the things they did as far as bracing and the like.

    I'll certainly agree of course that when Wolverine's claws cut high end bricks, they're going way beyond comic book peak humans, but then again I don't actually think those showings are valid.

    When Wolverine cuts, say, a girder, nothing but some problematic attempt to apply PSI analysis to comics puts it "way beyond" peak human. Beyond? Sure. Beyond what would happen if you gave one of those other guys the same thing? Not really.

    Any discussions of PSI and such were a reeallllly loose illustration/explanation of how much more ridiculous him cutting through even stuff you normally see him cut is.
    They were certainly an attempt to apply scientific analysis to comics in a way that fit poorly, resulted in implications you seem to have to ignore, and don't even seem to be going over that great with people trucking in that basis for analyzing things.

  15. #135
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abmccray View Post
    If they had Wolverine's unbreakable skeleton, and could possibly brace themselves, it would be possible. Sadly, in real life, their bones and joints would get the force of the impact and they'd just crush themselves. The other thing you have to wave away in comic books. Or with Drago's 4 tons of force in Rocky.

    Also, we have to assume that gauge doesn't work with the same scaling system they use to inflate wrestlers' heights. The best strikers ever barely break 1000
    Why do we have to assume that? They're fictional characters, the same as Ivan Drago. So why should he get 4 tons of force, and they can't get over a half-ton?
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