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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet View Post
    I wonder how they would've handled him. Would they have gone with the Jekyll/Hyde dynamic since none of his major non-comic adaptations have used it? I think it would set him apart well from the other mob bosses, especially since this show didn't use that characterization for Green Goblin or Lizard.
    I’d say that the fact that his organization is based off of Triads would provide a nice contrast to the more mafia inspired Spider-Man criminals that Spider-Man usually faces.

    It would also be a great way to introduce Cloak & Dagger since they got their powers from the same source.

  2. #227
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Oh Hammerhead is definitely not top dog material, the other crime lords point this out when he betrayed Tombstone. He didn't even question why a gun concealed in flowers was sent to him...Norman played this guy like a sucker.
    Don't think Norman played him at all, considering that Hammerhead picked the gun and threw to Tombstone to make it look like Tombstone started that fight, Hammerhead was definitely following Norman's plan, and the gun was obviously part of it.

    While I think he would be a force to be reckoned with if the Gang War storyline continued, he would have been chasing a title that he was never going to get.
    Didn't seem like he really cared about a new title, he just got sick of working for Tombstone and decided to work for someone else.

    To tell you the truth, I'm not even sure that there'd be a Kingpin/Big Man position due to all of the fighting and new faces popping up.

    Aside from Kingpin and POSSIBLY Foswell/Big Man (he died trying to get that spot back) have any of the crime lords in Spider-Man comics been able to have the majority of crime under them? I remember seeing a lot of fighting between gangs to claim that position...but I don't think too many have held it.
    Crime Master also briefly managed to do it, but he died pretty quickly.

    Foswell didn't "possibly" do it, he actually did it, it's why Fisk even decided to work for him, because he was the only one who made so many criminals work together before (That's ignoring Crime Master, but again, he's dead lol).

    And Foswel ironically enough, died because he wanted to protect JJ lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    In some regards its a nice contrast to how much Kingpin dominated the 90's show (and Smythe, who also wasn't even referenced in Spec).
    Oh yeah, Kingpin was behind everything there lol.

    And Mr. Negative would've likely joined in the fun had they continued...
    And season 3 would be a really good place to start, since Norman was a short lived "Big Man", and then he was gone, so the other mobs would be recovering their power, perfect chance for Mr. Negative to build his own mob.

    I think Hobby and The Rose got close.
    Did they now? They got far enough even when Kingpin was away from NY, but never got the impression they really went far with it, then again, I might be remembering badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet View Post
    I'd say she's as harsh and no nonsense as her husband. I don't know if she's as much of a monster, but she would definitely be a collaborator.

    The play's here if you or anyone is curious. It has a lot of the voice cast for both shows.

    Thanks.

    I wonder how they would've handled him. Would they have gone with the Jekyll/Hyde dynamic since none of his major non-comic adaptations have used it? I think it would set him apart well from the other mob bosses, especially since this show didn't use that characterization for Green Goblin or Lizard.
    Jekyll/Hyde dynamic would be cool, also wonder if he'd become some big villain for the season, 'cause him being able to possess people, even other villains, has huge potential.

  3. #228
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GamerSlyRatchet View Post
    I wonder how they would've handled him. Would they have gone with the Jekyll/Hyde dynamic since none of his major non-comic adaptations have used it? I think it would set him apart well from the other mob bosses, especially since this show didn't use that characterization for Green Goblin or Lizard.
    I mean, Lizard was definitely not Connors in any way, shape, or form even if we can argue the sentience of a lizard man with how feral he was acting. I think we would've gotten a smarter Lizard the next time Connors transformed.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Don't think Norman played him at all, considering that Hammerhead picked the gun and threw to Tombstone to make it look like Tombstone started that fight, Hammerhead was definitely following Norman's plan, and the gun was obviously part of it.

    Didn't seem like he really cared about a new title, he just got sick of working for Tombstone and decided to work for someone else.
    Hammerhead seemed to think that he was going to be the top crime boss and working on his own. "All goes well, them three mooks take each other out, and Hammerhead's the new Big Man...Wonder who I got to thank for them posies." Hammerhead didn't seem like the type who would respect costumed crime. Blackie Gaxton was appointed as Gobby's "Hammerhead" for that one supervillain experiment (it was a really short time as the new Big Man of Crime).

    Also, I think it's worth noting that because this show was restricted to only use Marvel characters that were STRICTLY from Spider-Man comics, they plucked minor characters like Blackie Gaxton and used those FBI agents from the Scarlet Spider comics (I'd assume that the FBI agents Wade and Briggs would probably be characters from SHIELD in any modern adaptation...but that may be me just having bad memories of the Ultimate cartoon and Far From Home and hijacking)

    Note: I just realized that Big Sky Billiard Room being owned by Montana of The Enforcers is a joke on how the "Big Sky" is a community in the state of Montana.

    Crime Master also briefly managed to do it, but he died pretty quickly.
    Funny how Crime Master was a brief partner to the Green Goblin who died not too long after he was the top crime boss in comics, and in this show Green Goblin was the top crime boss for maybe about two weeks before he "died". I suppose you need to be tall to handle that position. (Kingpin and Tombstone are pretty tall...and I think Foswell used stilts as the Big Man to appear taller)

    Oh yeah, Kingpin was behind everything there lol.
    Didn't Kingpin want to take over the world (or at least control ALL crime in the world)? It's funny as usually Kingpin is dangerous because he DOESN'T do all these grandiose schemes and is happy where he is at...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Hobby and The Rose got close.
    I just had a thought...would they even have been able to use Rose? Has Richard been as involved in Daredevil comics as his father? Sure they could probably use any of the other identities (as I think using Richard alone doesn't have the same "oomph" if they couldn't even reference his father at all), but I'm wondering if Richard became as connected to Daredevil as Wilson.
    Last edited by Mistah K88; 11-17-2020 at 11:05 AM.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I just had a thought...would they even have been able to use Rose? Has Richard been as involved in Daredevil comics as his father? Sure they could probably use any of the other identities (as I think using Richard alone doesn't have the same "oomph" if they couldn't even reference his father at all), but I'm wondering if Richard became as connected to Daredevil as Wilson.
    He appeared for a bit at the start of Brian Michael Bendis' Daredevil run.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I just had a thought...would they even have been able to use Rose? Has Richard been as involved in Daredevil comics as his father? Sure they could probably use any of the other identities (as I think using Richard alone doesn't have the same "oomph" if they couldn't even reference his father at all), but I'm wondering if Richard became as connected to Daredevil as Wilson.
    Now that I think about it, Richard Fisk was once a suspect to the identity of the Hobgoblin and was best friends with Ned Leeds.

    There's so much potential in a story arc with him at the forefront.

  7. #232
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Hammerhead seemed to think that he was going to be the top crime boss and working on his own. "All goes well, them three mooks take each other out, and Hammerhead's the new Big Man...Wonder who I got to thank for them posies." Hammerhead didn't seem like the type who would respect costumed crime. Blackie Gaxton was appointed as Gobby's "Hammerhead" for that one supervillain experiment (it was a really short time as the new Big Man of Crime).
    Riiiight, I forgot this moment, and checking out the episode here, when Silver Sable asks him how he blocked cellphones to prevent communications, he doesn't know what she's talking about but plays along, maybe I should use this as a half assed excuse to re-watch it one more time lol.

    It's weird though, they made Hammerhead be played by Green Goblin without even realizing it, and we never have a scene where Hammerhead finds out about it since this episode is the last one he shows up... That sucks, 'cause him finding out he's not that mastermind could be interesting.

    Funny how Crime Master was a brief partner to the Green Goblin who died not too long after he was the top crime boss in comics, and in this show Green Goblin was the top crime boss for maybe about two weeks before he "died". I suppose you need to be tall to handle that position. (Kingpin and Tombstone are pretty tall...and I think Foswell used stilts as the Big Man to appear taller)
    Norman is pretty tall too, and by that logic, Rhino would manage to be the "Big Man" for all eternity .

    I just had a thought...would they even have been able to use Rose? Has Richard been as involved in Daredevil comics as his father? Sure they could probably use any of the other identities (as I think using Richard alone doesn't have the same "oomph" if they couldn't even reference his father at all), but I'm wondering if Richard became as connected to Daredevil as Wilson.
    It's possible Richard couldn't be used just because he's the son of Fisk, regardless of how many times he showed up in Daredevil (Which I doubt it's much), but who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Now that I think about it, Richard Fisk was once a suspect to the identity of the Hobgoblin and was best friends with Ned Leeds.

    There's so much potential in a story arc with him at the forefront.
    I remember reading that Kingsley was planned to be Rose at some point too, think it'd be nice if an adaptation ever used some of those plans to mix stuff up a bit.

  8. #233
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    Something else worth noting that this show did very well was the establishment of J. Jonah Jameson's dislike of Spider-Man; as it seems to build throughout the series rather than start out immediately. I remember him not really caring about Spider-Man's existence when he first heard about Spidey and just wanted to make money off of the Webhead. Then in Jonah's first actual interaction with Spider-Man during Rhino's attack at the Bugle, Spidey kind of humiliates Jonah by sticking him to the ceiling. Then next Jonah becomes jealous of Spider-Man and Gobby's fight on Halloween night getting more attention in the news than his astronaut son's landing, which started him on the path to thinking Spider-Man was no good. It all seems to turn into full blown hatred when Spider-Man defeats John, sending him to Ravencroft. After all of this I can see this iteration of Jonah funding things that will come to bite him in the butt like the Spider Slayers and the Scorpion (the latter confirmed for season 3 were it to happen). Also, while we can claim Peter was a jerk in his personal dating life in this show, when it comes to messing with his boss it seems that Peter was able to say and do irritating things to Jonah under the anonymity of a mask that he wouldn't do as a civilian. It reminds me of the modern comic that Jonah specifically calls Spider-Man out for antagonizing him over the years. I believe Peter did harmless pranks in the comics quite a bit to people who got on his nerves (i.e. webbing his college dean's door shut). Peter wouldn't do anything to hurt someone, but enough to really inconvenience them. It's actually quite the departure from the "goody too shoes" that more recent adaptations portray him to be...(then again...early Peter was a bit of a jerk)

  9. #234
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Norman is pretty tall too, and by that logic, Rhino would manage to be the "Big Man" for all eternity .
    With that logic, Colonel Jupiter would beat them all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I remember reading that Kingsley was planned to be Rose at some point too, think it'd be nice if an adaptation ever used some of those plans to mix stuff up a bit.
    After how they handled the whole "Harry/Norman/Goblin" Saga, I have the utmost confidence they'd be able to pull it off successfully.

  10. #235
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Something else worth noting that this show did very well was the establishment of J. Jonah Jameson's dislike of Spider-Man; as it seems to build throughout the series rather than start out immediately. I remember him not really caring about Spider-Man's existence when he first heard about Spidey and just wanted to make money off of the Webhead. Then in Jonah's first actual interaction with Spider-Man during Rhino's attack at the Bugle, Spidey kind of humiliates Jonah by sticking him to the ceiling. Then next Jonah becomes jealous of Spider-Man and Gobby's fight on Halloween night getting more attention in the news than his astronaut son's landing, which started him on the path to thinking Spider-Man was no good. It all seems to turn into full blown hatred when Spider-Man defeats John, sending him to Ravencroft. After all of this I can see this iteration of Jonah funding things that will come to bite him in the butt like the Spider Slayers and the Scorpion (the latter confirmed for season 3 were it to happen). Also, while we can claim Peter was a jerk in his personal dating life in this show, when it comes to messing with his boss it seems that Peter was able to say and do irritating things to Jonah under the anonymity of a mask that he wouldn't do as a civilian. It reminds me of the modern comic that Jonah specifically calls Spider-Man out for antagonizing him over the years. I believe Peter did harmless pranks in the comics quite a bit to people who got on his nerves (i.e. webbing his college dean's door shut). Peter wouldn't do anything to hurt someone, but enough to really inconvenience them. It's actually quite the departure from the "goody too shoes" that more recent adaptations portray him to be...(then again...early Peter was a bit of a jerk)
    To be fair, that was a double edged knife, because JJ is the one who kept antagonizing Spidey first by constantly talking **** about him and outright lying about what Spidey was doing, so even if Spidey annoyed JJ to the point JJ started to hate him (Would need to rewatch since I didn't get that impression, he seemed to always keep the same level of dislike), again, JJ started it just because Spidey being humiliated would sell more newspapers.

    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    With that logic, Colonel Jupiter would beat them all.
    Colonel Jupiter would be a "Big Man" even after the universe dies out and it resets .

    After how they handled the whole "Harry/Norman/Goblin" Saga, I have the utmost confidence they'd be able to pull it off successfully.
    Just to be clear, I meant the comics when I said the Rose thing, since back when Hobgoblin's and Rose's identities weren't revealed, one of the planned characters to be Rose was Kingsley, so the suggestion would be for a cartoon to do that.

    But yeah, Spectacular would likely manage to handle that fine, I just wonder how they'd handle Hobgoblin, since Green Goblin stole everything that made Hobgoblin stand out, they'd need to be creative to make the "successor" work.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    To be fair, that was a double edged knife, because JJ is the one who kept antagonizing Spidey first by constantly talking **** about him and outright lying about what Spidey was doing, so even if Spidey annoyed JJ to the point JJ started to hate him (Would need to rewatch since I didn't get that impression, he seemed to always keep the same level of dislike), again, JJ started it just because Spidey being humiliated would sell more newspapers.
    I just remembered that haha. Spider-Man wasn't supposed to know that! It's like how when Harry came to Gwen to explain the Goblin situation he had to remind himself that he doesn't know anything about the Green Goblin's identity. I'll probably need to rewatch as well. With Scorpion planned for season 3, I'm curious to know how they would have handled him as well. I know in his earlier appearances it was shown that his mind was deteriorating...and in the 90's cartoon he was mutating in his earlier appearances (I think that was dropped as I definitely remember him looking more normal in later episodes). I wonder if in Spec we we would have seen Gargan be hyper competent at first (leaning into his P.I. background) and then start to become more "wild" (It'd definitely be a convenient way to have him actually learn Spidey's identity and then "forget").


    But yeah, Spectacular would likely manage to handle that fine, I just wonder how they'd handle Hobgoblin, since Green Goblin stole everything that made Hobgoblin stand out, they'd need to be creative to make the "successor" work.
    One thing that would make Hobgoblin different is that dupes were purposely set up and deliberate, where Gobby was simply lucky (hell it's kind of true in comics that his handling of his secret identity and avoiding jail time was luck too [Peter LET HIM GO...a lot]).

    After watching Batman Beyond and noticed that there were were a few villains who came from Terry's school (I counted two teachers and two students) and also some others like 10 also being Terry's age. In this show despite Peter being a teenager, it's interesting that all of his villains were adults. Even those who were not too much older than him (Eddie Brock and Mark Allen) were legally adults with Mark being the only one that went to school with Peter and only was there an extra year because he was in juvenile hall.

  12. #237
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I just remembered that haha. Spider-Man wasn't supposed to know that! It's like how when Harry came to Gwen to explain the Goblin situation he had to remind himself that he doesn't know anything about the Green Goblin's identity. I'll probably need to rewatch as well. With Scorpion planned for season 3, I'm curious to know how they would have handled him as well. I know in his earlier appearances it was shown that his mind was deteriorating...and in the 90's cartoon he was mutating in his earlier appearances (I think that was dropped as I definitely remember him looking more normal in later episodes). I wonder if in Spec we we would have seen Gargan be hyper competent at first (leaning into his P.I. background) and then start to become more "wild" (It'd definitely be a convenient way to have him actually learn Spidey's identity and then "forget").
    Fake!Norman was calling him, so either he's competent enough to be in Osborn's employ or he's incompetent enough that he would never actually jeopardize Chameleon's Osborn act .
    One thing that would make Hobgoblin different is that dupes were purposely set up and deliberate, where Gobby was simply lucky (hell it's kind of true in comics that his handling of his secret identity and avoiding jail time was luck too [Peter LET HIM GO...a lot]).

    After watching Batman Beyond and noticed that there were were a few villains who came from Terry's school (I counted two teachers and two students) and also some others like 10 also being Terry's age. In this show despite Peter being a teenager, it's interesting that all of his villains were adults. Even those who were not too much older than him (Eddie Brock and Mark Allen) were legally adults with Mark being the only one that went to school with Peter and only was there an extra year because he was in juvenile hall.
    Felicia was 19 too (if you count her as a villain).

    It's kind of an interesting contrast when subsequent cartoons made Rhino a teenage classmate of Peter and de-aged some of his other Rogues...

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    With Scorpion planned for season 3, I'm curious to know how they would have handled him as well. I know in his earlier appearances it was shown that his mind was deteriorating...and in the 90's cartoon he was mutating in his earlier appearances (I think that was dropped as I definitely remember him looking more normal in later episodes). I wonder if in Spec we we would have seen Gargan be hyper competent at first (leaning into his P.I. background) and then start to become more "wild" (It'd definitely be a convenient way to have him actually learn Spidey's identity and then "forget").
    What's great is how well Weisman set up the Scorpion and possible Spider-Slayer storylines.

    Spider-Man seemingly being at fault for John's condition explains why he would go to the trouble of funding super people to hunt down Spider-Man.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    With Scorpion planned for season 3, I'm curious to know how they would have handled him as well. I know in his earlier appearances it was shown that his mind was deteriorating...and in the 90's cartoon he was mutating in his earlier appearances (I think that was dropped as I definitely remember him looking more normal in later episodes). I wonder if in Spec we we would have seen Gargan be hyper competent at first (leaning into his P.I. background) and then start to become more "wild" (It'd definitely be a convenient way to have him actually learn Spidey's identity and then "forget").
    I thought about this before. Since Weisman liked to base each arc around a course, I suspect the Scorpion would have been part of an Espionage arc.

    The reason is that Gargan in the comics wasn't the only one to spy on Peter. Foswell/Patch was the second person try it. I forgot the number but it was in one of the Lee/Romita issues. And since Foswell got a lot of screen time in Season 2, and Peter learned of his identity as Patch, I suspect one of the Season 3 story arcs would have looked something like this:

    Episode 1 - Jameson instructs Foswell to spy on Peter, but Peter catches on and fools him like in the comics.
    Episode 2 - Jameson hires an actual professional to spy on Peter, and that professional is Gargan.
    Episode 3 - Gargan becomes the Scorpion.

  15. #240
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I just remembered that haha. Spider-Man wasn't supposed to know that! It's like how when Harry came to Gwen to explain the Goblin situation he had to remind himself that he doesn't know anything about the Green Goblin's identity.
    I mean, Spidey is only not supposed to know why JJ is spreading slander, 'cause from his point of view, it can be still seen as "Wait, I'm busting my ass to stop super-villains, and this guy keeps saying I'm a criminal all the time?", so even in that case, JJ is still the one who started it.

    [quote]I'll probably need to rewatch as well. With Scorpion planned for season 3, I'm curious to know how they would have handled him as well. I know in his earlier appearances it was shown that his mind was deteriorating...and in the 90's cartoon he was mutating in his earlier appearances (I think that was dropped as I definitely remember him looking more normal in later episodes). I wonder if in Spec we we would have seen Gargan be hyper competent at first (leaning into his P.I. background) and then start to become more "wild" (It'd definitely be a convenient way to have him actually learn Spidey's identity and then "forget").

    I didn't even remember that Gargan was in Spectacular, was he just mentioned?

    One thing that would make Hobgoblin different is that dupes were purposely set up and deliberate, where Gobby was simply lucky (hell it's kind of true in comics that his handling of his secret identity and avoiding jail time was luck too [Peter LET HIM GO...a lot]).
    Well, the comics make no secret that it was Peter thinking it'd be better for him to be around for Harry's sake, Spectacular follows Weisman's usual dumbass villain **** of "Haha, I'm a master planner, even when I'm lucky, but the narration won't point out how much luck I needed so I can look smarter!"

    And while the first times Green Goblin was just lucky to use other people to hide his identity (Chameleon just happening to steal from Oscorp while disguised as Norman on the same day Norman steals from it as Green Goblin, and everything about Harry), by season 2 he was doing it on purpose, by kidnapping Harry so he can be Green Goblin as much as he wants without Spidey being suspicious, hiring Chameleon to pretend to be him while Norman can be Green Goblin so both Norman and Green Goblin can be at the same place at the same time just fine, pinning the blame on Menken to set up a trap on Spidey... He went from doing it on accident to doing it on purpose in very effective ways, Hobgoblin doing the same thing would be just a repeat, without the novelty.

    At the very least, in the gang war episode has Kingsley suddenly acting in a more cowardly way, and while that can be understandable considering he was dealing with super-villains, he says later "Bait and switch. Sometimes the classics really are the best", then sees people around him fighting and acts more composed all of the sudden, so yeah, it really sounds like he was using his brother there, though how much he'd use that once he became Hobgoblin, hard to say, but again, using other people to hide his identity as Hobgoblin wouldn't have a novelty anymore, plus it'd be too soon to do the same thing in the next season... Then again, Young Justice's season 3 repeats a lot of **** from season 2, so that wouldn't be surprisingly, unfortunately...

    After watching Batman Beyond and noticed that there were were a few villains who came from Terry's school (I counted two teachers and two students) and also some others like 10 also being Terry's age. In this show despite Peter being a teenager, it's interesting that all of his villains were adults. Even those who were not too much older than him (Eddie Brock and Mark Allen) were legally adults with Mark being the only one that went to school with Peter and only was there an extra year because he was in juvenile hall.
    Well, not surprising, the show uses Ditko era's style, and few villains were connected to his civilian life back then, and no one from his school was a villain, so yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Fake!Norman was calling him, so either he's competent enough to be in Osborn's employ or he's incompetent enough that he would never actually jeopardize Chameleon's Osborn act .
    To be fair, Chameleon's Norman was pretty good, only screw up he made was apologizing to Harry, he even says very Norman-like lines like "He tried to kill Harry, and worse, he betrayed me." lol.

    Felicia was 19 too (if you count her as a villain).
    She's a villain by the last time she shows up, or at least sounds like it, since she's openly opposing Spidey out of spite.

    It's kind of an interesting contrast when subsequent cartoons made Rhino a teenage classmate of Peter and de-aged some of his other Rogues...
    Isn't Shocker one of Peter's classmates too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I thought about this before. Since Weisman liked to base each arc around a course, I suspect the Scorpion would have been part of an Espionage arc.

    The reason is that Gargan in the comics wasn't the only one to spy on Peter. Foswell/Patch was the second person try it. I forgot the number but it was in one of the Lee/Romita issues.
    ASM#46:

    https://i.imgur.com/PO6b9d9.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/j9hQtcX.jpg

    And since Foswell got a lot of screen time in Season 2, and Peter learned of his identity as Patch, I suspect one of the Season 3 story arcs would have looked something like this:

    Episode 1 - Jameson instructs Foswell to spy on Peter, but Peter catches on and fools him like in the comics.
    Episode 2 - Jameson hires an actual professional to spy on Peter, and that professional is Gargan.
    Episode 3 - Gargan becomes the Scorpion.
    Huh, maybe one after the other like this, but a chain of events like this would be cool.

    I also wonder if maybe there would be some connection between Rhino and Scorpion, like maybe he gets a super awesome armor like Rhino's, but one that allows more flexibility, but is weaker, though question would be who would start making super-villains with Norman out of the picture, maybe Kingsley? Or that Tricorp company? Or just Otto eventually escaping jail and making more, since he was the one essentially behind Rhino and Sandman after all...

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