A political question in regards to race outrage

[johnmahananda]

This isn't happening in a vacuum. The lack of role models in comics is an issue across all entertainment. All kids in the western world are taught, from year dot, that str8, white men are the "norm". They are the majority of the "good guys", the "heroes", the "leads" and everyone else is second best. Haven't you ever heard of little black girls not wanting a black Barbie because "she's ugly". Where do you think they learn that? MEDIA! Media, media, media! Media that teaches kids lily white skin, thin waists and blonde hair is "the ultimate beauty." All representation matters; and it does effect kids and society.

This is tangential, I guess, but I want to make the point. It's not just Western culture. I lived in a few different places in Asia for quite some time and I saw across the board that, the darker someone's skin, the more they are devalued, and the more the devalued person craves physical alteration for better acceptance. India, Japan, Philippines, etc. Which does agree with your main point, but it's not only American and European kids that are exposed to the influence.

Children are fully susceptible to media bombardment, no question, and it's insidious, to say the least. "You need to look EXACTLY like this, wear EXACTLY these clothes, eat EXACTLY this food" or you are not a genuine member of the human race. Or, I guess, the coolest segment thereof. That's about as evil as it gets, short of physical abuse.

But...are there really no role models in Western art? None? That seems extreme. I'm not sure I want to suggest any, because that would only be my opinion and my bias, but there have to be some positive role models in movies and comics. How about Forever Carlyle from Lazarus?

[johnmahananda]

There are characters I think are intrinsically tied to their race. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Black Panther is probably the best example.

I mostly agree but what a huge can of worms. Maybe we could say instead "tied to the ethnicity of their country of origin"? Maybe that seems like semantics but it's probably a valid distinction. For Storm to be Storm, she needs to be a dark-skinned African. For Vixen to be Vixen, she needn't be an African-American. For John Constantine to be Constantine, he needn't be Caucasian. For Mantis to be Mantis, she needs to be Asian.

So, IMO, the character's identity has been undermined for the sake of stunt casting.

Exactly. If we make Isis or Hera a man, would that fly? Doesn't it undermine some of the divine attributes associated with them?

[DrNewGod]

Well, I'll be fair and say Falcon becoming Captain America could have happened as a result of natural story progression, but it most certainly wasn't. Even if one ignores the replacements piling up around the time. Steve Rogers put on an robot suit twice to fight the important battles during the short time Falcon was Cap now.

Another one I dislike is Wally West getting the most generic black origin they could think of. And the fact that DC at the time was trying to tell you what characters where the best instead of letting fans decide for themselves suggests drastically altering the guys origin might have actually been an attempt of alienating fans off the far more popular Flash for the sake of making Barry standout.

It's off topic, but the Flash and Green Lantern relaunches were botched (IMO). If they were starting over, they should have started over, and gone with revisions as stark from the Showcase reincarnations as the Showcase reincarnations were from the characters that disappeared in All-Star Comics #1.57.

On topic, I don't have any particular problem with the race-flip of Kid Flash. Could it have been better? I'm sure. Did the change in race need to be dramatically centered on race? Not necessarily. Perhaps its better to have at least some character diversity be conscious of the social implications without being about the social implications. I won't speak for anyone, but I suspect the bulk of humanity spends the bulk of the their time simply being, as opposed to being [insert your preferred demographic lable here]. I don't see why it need be different for superheroes.

[G.M.K.M]

You seem to be looking for some sort of objective formula "Gay Blue Beetle is acceptable but gay Ghost Rider is not" or something. That's not how it works. Or even the point of having positive representation in the media

Well if sexuality is just as easily swapped is there not enough room for a straight Robin, or perhaps a gay Punisher?

[Stahlflamme]

Well if sexuality is just as easily swapped is there not enough room for a straight Robin, or perhaps a gay Punisher?

You do know that Punisher is bisexual, right?

[Arvandor]

But...are there really no role models in Western art? None? That seems extreme. I'm not sure I want to suggest any, because that would only be my opinion and my bias, but there have to be some positive role models in movies and comics. How about Forever Carlyle from Lazarus?

The genetically engineered assassin with daddy issues? Strange suggestion for a positive role model.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Well if sexuality is just as easily swapped is there not enough room for a straight Robin, or perhaps a gay Punisher?

Pretty sure most of the Robins have been straight, except in the minds of people who make gay jokes about
batman and Robin. You seem to come uncomfortably close to using things like race, ethnicity and orientation as insults.

[Carabas]

I'd like to say one last thing to this, as it is detracting from the OP's questioning.

Parents have the responsibility to protect their children from whatever detrimental things that they can. Can they do it 100%? Of course not. I watched/read/saw things my parents wouldn't have allowed had they known. It isn't the responsibility of commercial entertainment to provide you with entertainment that you feel is tailored to what you allowed your children to see. They don't teach your children that heterosexual white males are the norm. You teach them they are not. Get to your children before media gets to them. Limit what you allow them to on the internet. There are all kinds of parental controls to help you limit that. Yes they will still things you don't want. But nip it in the bud when you see/hear it. Turn their minds in the right direction so that they forget and don't let those preconceived ideas poison their minds.

I'm not disagreeing that fiction and media affect those that consume it. As adults we can see what the underlying reasons are for whatever propaganda a piece of fiction or media is perpetrating. Children can't. And for that reason, as parents it is so important that we don't let that effect our children's impressionable minds. Because blaming media and fiction for a child growing up to be whatever negative traits he may have is a cop out. Just like physical nutrients needed in the body, there are mental nutrients for the brain. Don't let your child consume brain junk food.

In an ideal world you'd have a point.

In the real world not everybody is a perfect parent and way too many kids get raised by television.

And no matter how good a parent you are, no matter what you tell your kids, popular culture and mass media are still going to influence your kids in both positive and negative ways.

"Don't let your child consume brain junk food." is a nice sentiment but it's not a realistic solution for anything except on a pure individual scale where the problems we are discussing are on a much broader scale.

[G.M.K.M]

Pretty sure most of the Robins have been straight, except in the minds of people who make gay jokes about
batman and Robin. You seem to come uncomfortably close to using things like race, ethnicity and orientation as insults.

Oh no. I've seen it on Google image. Type in "Robin and Kid flash", look at all the art-work and tell me it doesn't bear a semblance to a homosexual couple.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Oh no. I've seen it on Google image. Type in "Robin and Kid flash", look at all the art-work and tell me it doesn't bear a semblance to a homosexual couple.

That's all fan art. You're obviously taking the piss.

[G.M.K.M]

I didn't know that. I stand corrected.

[WAKANDA FOREVER!]

Oh no. I've seen it on Google image. Type in "Robin and Kid flash", look at all the art-work and tell me it doesn't bear a semblance to a homosexual couple.

Doomsday prophet here and this thread won't end well. Peace (out)!

[ed2962]

To me, it feels like a forced, PC-accommodating gesture rather than an earnest artistic endeavor. And, to me, that's the wrong motivation for making super-hero X suddenly a Filipino (or whatever). That's about all I can say. I might be wrong; I might not be wrong. That's just how it seems to me and I just don't read those titles.

But who were they accommodating when Bucky became Cap and Doc Ock became Spidey? When Steph Brown replaced Cass Cain were they they accommodating anti-asian racists? When Hank Pym became Wasp were they accommodating men's rights activist?

I mean, sure...it's no doubt that some of the changes to the marquee characters are only temporary and that's just how it's been for years. However, we've not only had legacy characters for decades, we've had minority and women replacements for decades. I'm not sure how they need pure art for art sake reasons when in the past it was to either shake things up for a bit or give a new take on an old character.

In a lot of cases the companies need to hold on to certain trademarks. If they're going to do a new "Capt Ultra" regardless and someone says "Hey, instead of just copying the old one, let's make the new one asian or female and see if the readers like it," I don't see how it's suspicious. Forget being PC, if nothing else it gives their line up more variety. And yes, you can't just stop there and say the new Capt Ultra is gay or whatever and think you're going to have a hit on that alone. But that's true white heroes as well. But when a boring white capt ultra fails, you won't hear "They keep trying to shove these white heroes down our throats and they don't sell!"

[ed2962]

Well if sexuality is just as easily swapped is there not enough room for a straight Robin, or perhaps a gay Punisher?

I'm not sure of what you're asking? Robin is straight although there's are a lot of shippers that want to see him with Conner Kent Superboy.

For what it's worth "gay" Punisher turned up as a joke some years ago in a Wolverine comic.

[skyvolt2000]

To me, it feels like a forced, PC-accommodating gesture rather than an earnest artistic endeavor. And, to me, that's the wrong motivation for making super-hero X suddenly a Filipino (or whatever). That's about all I can say. I might be wrong; I might not be wrong. That's just how it seems to me and I just don't read those titles.

It depends on who you are talking about.

Wally West was a middle finger to his fans. Plain and simple. If you wanted a black kid flash you had one in XS.

Rhodes just took over for Tony due to his drinking and faking his death. Eventually he stood out on his own as Wart Machine.

Falcon-I view that as a story line and a resume building path for Falcon. Remember Marvel did put out a Falcon trade before Winter Soldier and not everyone was able to find it. Now you have him as Cap America that ensures you will have books with him in stores before he returned to being Falcon and Steve as Capt, America.

Think of it s what was done with Tim Drake before his series.

Jaime Reyes is different enough that you can have him and Ted be Beetles at the same time with a different path.

Jason Rusch and Ronnie can both be Firestorm and follow different paths instead of Jason being benched.

I think many would rather Marvel & DC use the POC that they already have however FANS have to grow up. You can't be openly hostile to John Stewart, Black Lighting, Vixen, Static, BP and others then get MAD when you get a black Johnny Storm or Wally West.

If you don't want them support the ones who are already around even if you have to lie about it.