Superman Wonder Woman #21 [whole issue] Discussion and Spoilers

[GuiltyPleasure]

With the exception of Lois, no one else seemed to have an issue with allowing WW to use her lasso on them. Obviously, up until that point, none of them had shared anything with the people holding them. Diana's presence, IMO, made all the difference. They felt safe and protected with her there, in a way they didn't before she arrived. So they agreed to do what needed doing to, not ensure their freedom, but to increase the likelihood of not being bothered by the government again. Either way, it was clear Diana wasn't leaving without the hostages. The lasso had a greater long term solution than simply getting them away from the facility, which was a very short term plan.

And Clark's sudden issue with Diana's use of her lasso, especially when Tomasi just wrote her using it in a sneaky fashion in the Circe arc, is a bit much. This is even more true since it was Clark who, if I'm not mistaken, came up with the plan. He at least agreed with it. At that point, Wonderstar had done nothing but "help" the couple. But Clark had no problem with Diana tricking Wonderstar so Diana could read the truth from him, which isn't how the lasso worked in the past. That is another Tomasi spin on things that adds nothing to the character of WW.

[Sacred Knight]

It was a lot much, imo. I've read it over a few times now and it gets more ridiculous each time I read it. If his mind's not being tampered with then its a major fail. But even with that you run into the question brought up here already as to why no one's noticed yet or questioned it. So either way I'm seeing some lukewarm narrative here. But the latter is far better than the former.

[GuiltyPleasure]

It was a lot much, imo. I've read it over a few times now and it gets more ridiculous each time I read it. If his mind's not being tampered with then its a major fail. But even with that you run into the question brought up here already as to why no one's noticed yet or questioned it. So either way I'm seeing some lukewarm narrative here. But the latter is far better than the former.

Most of this issue was over the top for me. I've read it twice and that's about all I can stomach. The so-called character moments did not work for me. I have no idea if Clark is being emotionally or psychologically affected in some kind of way or whether Tomasi has just turned him into a depowered jackass. And yeah, love may be a roller coaster, but I don't recall Clark and Diana ever being written without some relationship angst following them around. It would be nice, as a change of pace, to have an arc that has nothing to do with "testing" their relationship. The topics of just plain hero stories are endless, especially with two powerhouses. Every story doesn't have to be about them as a couple on such a personal, relationship defining level. Sheesh.

[Aula_Magna]

It was a lot much, imo. I've read it over a few times now and it gets more ridiculous each time I read it. If his mind's not being tampered with then its a major fail. But even with that you run into the question brought up here already as to why no one's noticed yet or questioned it. So either way I'm seeing some lukewarm narrative here. But the latter is far better than the former.

Wonder Woman's noticed, however it's not her place to question her man.

[Aula_Magna]

Superman should be mad at Wonder Woman but for not calling him after Steve gave her that call. If he didn't pick up the phone then he only would've had himself to blame.

[brettc1]

It was a lot much, imo. I've read it over a few times now and it gets more ridiculous each time I read it. If his mind's not being tampered with then its a major fail. But even with that you run into the question brought up here already as to why no one's noticed yet or questioned it. So either way I'm seeing some lukewarm narrative here. But the latter is far better than the former.

One thing that I'm not sure has been discussed yet is the weird look he gives Diana when he suddenly realises he is holding the lasso.

The way it is presented it seemed to be significant that he let go of it before the continued talking.

[Lax]

His point is that "consent" may not really be consent if it's under duress.

He would have a point if the duress came from Wonder Woman, but it doesn't, in fact she acts as an agent to relieve the stress.

If the scientist said to Lois, "Make love to me or I'll keep you imprisoned here," we probably wouldn't call that real lovemaking; it would be more like an attempt at rape by coercion. This case is more ambiguous than that, but I don't think Superman would be crazy to argue that the consent was not free and valid.

That's because in your scenario both the demand for sex and the kidnapping come from the same person.

However, if a government scientist told Lois "You'll stay here until our research on sexual intercourse is complete." and a stranger breaks into the facility and says "I'll bang her!" while explicitly asking for Lane's permission before hand... that stranger is not a rapist.


The stranger is giving Lois an option for freedom that she didn't have before and she doesn't have to take it. If that option is in anyway traumatic for Lois then the blame falls squarely on whatever person or organization that's responsible for kidnapping her and setting the condition for freedom as sexual intercourse.


The real issue is in their willingness to bow to the authority of the government in place of their own morality. This is the same organization responsible for nearly murdered Superman a couple of issues ago. If anybody else had done this and then kidnapped these innocent people Supes & Wondy would have rescued them first and asked questions later. The government does it and they still play by the government's rules because... government. This double standard is not addressed within the story because doing so would cause real world backlash for the writer.

I assume he blames the government for inflicting the stress. He blames Wonder Woman for using to lasso to interrogate his friends without their free, valid consent.

I don't, because if he did he'd be furious with Obama and not Wonder Woman. A Superman who doesn't understand where responsibility lies is a Superman who cannot differentiate between good and evil.

He has quite literally become traumatized to the point of insanity. That he can honestly analyze this situation and come to the conclusion that he and Wonder Woman are the problem is... complete madness. Between the government, media, and certain sections of the public, the DC world at large has actually succeeded in cultivating Stockholm Syndrome within Superman.

[Silvanus]

He would have a point if the duress came from Wonder Woman, but it doesn't, in fact she acts as an agent to relieve the stress.

That's because in your scenario both the demand for sex and the kidnapping come from the same person.

So, if the scientist demanded that Diana have sex with his nephew, the nephew would be just "making love"? Nah--the nephew might be completely innocent of coercion, but he'd still be having sex to which the other party didn't give valid consent. Likewise, though Superman would be wrong to blame Diana for coercing Lois and the others, that 's not actually what he blames her for; and he's not necessarily wrong to blame her for using her lasso on them without their valid consent. He may be making too big a deal of that, when he wouldn't mind her using her lasso on other people in other circumstances without their consent--but these are his friends, he believes them to be innocent, and they're there because of him: I don't think it's completely crazy for him to apply a different standard here. It may not be justified, but it's only human.

The real issue is in their willingness to bow to the authority of the government in place of their own morality.

Who do you mean by "they"? If you're saying that Diana becomes problematically complicit with the bad acts of the government, then I agree; that's pretty much what I was saying above, and it's basically what I think Superman is upset with her about.

This is the same organization responsible for nearly murdered Superman a couple of issues ago. If anybody else had done this and then kidnapped these innocent people Supes & Wondy would have rescued them first and asked questions later. The government does it and they still play by the government's rules because... government. This double standard is not addressed within the story because doing so would cause real world backlash for the writer.

I'm not sure the real-world government takes comics so seriously that the writer needs to worry about such "backlash." I doubt the writer thinks so; if he did, he probably wouldn't be using President Obama as a character responsible for imprisoning Superman's friends. More to the point, within the comic, I think Superman is angry at the government, but he doesn't feel as betrayed by them, because he never trusted or cared for them that much in the first place. I do agree with you that he's overreacting to Diana's attempt to help, no matter how questionable her claim of "consent" or her choice to cooperate with the government may be; but I think most people, and even most heroes, might initially overreact under such circumstances. Then again, I haven't been reading the whole crossover, and I get the sense that if I had I might be more fed up with the characters' continuing misguided actions.

[Aula_Magna]

Just want to put this here

[ssupes]

Just want to put this here

1. How is this relevant in anyway shape or form to this issue or any discussion on this thread?

2. pretty sure he also said in a earlier interview how Clark would hate Lois for what she has done or something to that effect. So he is probably covering up for that.

[brettc1]

Just want to put this here

This is relevant because Yang, who is writing Superman right now, has put out there in his own words that there something unresolved between Clark and Lois. And that something is referenced in this issue through the questions about their romantic attachment.

Sadly (to me) he also mentions the next arc of this saga is going to exploring what makes Superman good. So I expect more issue of SM+1 where the book is used primarily as an additional vehicle through which to sell stories of the Last Son of Krypton.

[ssupes]

This is relevant because Yang, who is writing Superman right now, has put out there in his own words that there something unresolved between Clark and Lois. And that something is referenced in this issue through the questions about their romantic attachment.

Sadly (to me) he also mentions the next arc of this saga is going to exploring what makes Superman good. So I expect more issue of SM+1 where the book is used primarily as an additional vehicle through which to sell stories of the Last Son of Krypton.

The mention was a simple question about their romantic life which was quickly answered by saying there wasn't any. This interview tidbit is about future issues as you say which isn't covered in the scope of this particular forum otherwise it would be titled "Superman Wonder Woman #21 [whole issue] Discussion and Spoilers And what may happen in future issues". So I ask again how is it relevant to this forum?

Also I noticed you call this book Sm+1 yet you have no qualm about the BMSM book which is also in this crossover. Care to share what you would call that book?

[Sacred Knight]

Its probably completely irrelevant, in fact. Resolving their relationship is a plot point in the Superman book, not SM/WW. Just like Superman's relationship with Metropolis is being covered in Action, and his relationship with Gordon is being covered in BM/SM.

Essentially, nothing to see here, as usual.

[Aula_Magna]

Ah right...this vindicates me, for as long as I remember knowing you you've denied there was tension between them, though it's as plain as day really...

[Sacred Knight]

No, I've argued that no tension between Lois and Clark has been portrayed as being a problem in Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship. And it has not.