Superman Wonder Woman #21 [whole issue] Discussion and Spoilers

[Silvanus]

Maybe because a lot of the fans who used to post here whonwould even know who he is didn't hang around long in the New52?

Look at the thread on the list of Wonder WOman's best villains. There are still people around here who are interested in the old rogues.

[Sacred Knight]

Also to be fair the Angle Man revelation was spoiled by Yang, technically we're not supposed to know that yet. It had definitely been a theory but the title itself has yet to identify Mr. Bend as Angle Man. So this is brand new information, basically.

[brettc1]

Look at the thread on the list of Wonder WOman's best villains. There are still people around here who are interested in the old rogues.

I didn't say there weren't.

Just not as many.

[Aula_Magna]

Also because all the excitement over SM/WW has already been obliterated and Angle Man is more interested in Superman this time around.

[Sacred Knight]

If Yang is right and Mr. Bend is indeed Angle Man, and Mr. Bend is the same guy whose been watching them for the duration of Tomasi's run--which has been visually implied--then no, he's not more interested in Superman this time around, he's interested in them both.

[brettc1]

If Yang is right and Mr. Bend is indeed Angle Man, and Mr. Bend is the same guy whose been watching them for the duration of Tomasi's run--which has been visually implied--then no, he's not more interested in Superman this time around, he's interested in them both.

Yeah...

but has he been watching them both, or is it just that he's been watching Superman and Diana is around.

I men, if the joker is watching Batman, and Robin is there, is he really watching BOTH of them?

I guess we will see.

[Sacred Knight]

He's been watching them well before this current plot against Superman got underway, so I'd say the most likely scenario at this point is that he's been plotting against the both of them combined for some time now, and got involved in this recent plot against Superman in particular to aid his own personal ends regarding the two.

[Lax]

So, if the scientist demanded that Diana have sex with his nephew, the nephew would be just "making love"? Nah--the nephew might be completely innocent of coercion, but he'd still be having sex to which the other party didn't give valid consent. Likewise, though Superman would be wrong to blame Diana for coercing Lois and the others, that 's not actually what he blames her for; and he's not necessarily wrong to blame her for using her lasso on them without their valid consent. He may be making too big a deal of that, when he wouldn't mind her using her lasso on other people in other circumstances without their consent--but these are his friends, he believes them to be innocent, and they're there because of him: I don't think it's completely crazy for him to apply a different standard here. It may not be justified, but it's only human.

Romantics are quite fond of labeling consensual sex as "making love", it's what they do. Regardless the point remains that the only moral difference between "rape" and "making love" is consent.

You keep saying the lasso was used without "valid" consent, what was invalid about their consent? They are perfectly free to reject Wonder Woman's help.

Also, they're not there because of Superman, they're there because the government kidnapped them.

Who do you mean by "they"? If you're saying that Diana becomes problematically complicit with the bad acts of the government, then I agree; that's pretty much what I was saying above, and it's basically what I think Superman is upset with her about.

I mean "they" as in both Superman and Wonder Woman.

Within this story the United States government is an organization that nearly succeeded in murdering Superman, played insidious mind games with the removal of his parent's house/graves, and then preceded to kidnapped Superman's friends and allies. That is more than enough reason to snatch Lois, Lana, Steel, Perry and company immediately and worry about negotiating with Steve Trevor/Barack Obama afterward. If any other organization had pulled this stunt that's exactly how Superman and Wonder Woman would've handled it and rightfully so.

That is what I mean by "their willingness to bow to the authority of the government in place of their own morality". Had they done things as they usually would, this "valid consent" argument with the Lasso would be a moot point. So when I see this...

Wonder Woman: "I knew they'd be nothing incriminating or incendiary about their answers."

Superman: "And if someone in some government cubicle watching the interview uploads don't agree with your assessment, what then?

... I ask "And if Obama, in his wisdom, decided he wasn't in the mood to release your friends without the lasso, what then?" to highlight Superman's mind-blowing "what if" hypocrisy.

I'm not sure the real-world government takes comics so seriously that the writer needs to worry about such "backlash." I doubt the writer thinks so; if he did, he probably wouldn't be using President Obama as a character responsible for imprisoning Superman's friends.

When it's time to get offended people take otherwise trivial matters very seriously. In spite of what the government had done and being it's Commander and Chief, the writer portrayed Obama as well meaning but undermined by overzealous subordinates. The president is either evil or woefully incompetent yet is not called out as such by Superman, while Wonder Woman is called out for imaginary moral conflicts. Ultimately Superman left on better terms with Obama than Wonder Woman.

Why would a writer shy away from having Superman call out the leader of an organization that is responsible for causing so much needless strife in the story? To avoid backlash from either the real-world government or it's real-world supporters.

More to the point, within the comic, I think Superman is angry at the government, but he doesn't feel as betrayed by them, because he never trusted or cared for them that much in the first place. I do agree with you that he's overreacting to Diana's attempt to help, no matter how questionable her claim of "consent" or her choice to cooperate with the government may be; but I think most people, and even most heroes, might initially overreact under such circumstances. Then again, I haven't been reading the whole crossover, and I get the sense that if I had I might be more fed up with the characters' continuing misguided actions.

Except there is no betrayal.

Any feelings of "betrayal" are born out of Superman's own twisted logic, he is wrong. He wanted Wonder Woman to stay out if it and she refused, that is what counts as "betrayal" in Superman's mind. For a man known for selflessness he has zero interest in acknowledging how selfish that method of operation actually is. Wonder Woman's involvement increases the chances of successfully rescuing loved ones? Blah, who needs that, weakened Superman can do the job solo! Completely ignore the fact that the only reason he's even alive to think like this is because Wondy saved him from the Suicide Squad to begin with.

There is no reasonable avenue to be angry with Wonder Woman in this situation, let alone more angry with her than the government that's actually causing the problem. What evidence did the government have to kidnap anybody? Any due process? Is any of this on public record? Anything? Superman doesn't ask these questions but gives Wonder Woman third degree over imaginary betrayal and violation of explicitly given consent.

[ssupes]

He's been watching them well before this current plot against Superman got underway, so I'd say the most likely scenario at this point is that he's been plotting against the both of them combined for some time now, and got involved in this recent plot against Superman in particular to aid his own personal ends regarding the two.

Another scenario could be that he was hired to help take down superman and he could have his personal reasons to include Wonder Woman.

[Tayswift]

Yeah...

but has he been watching them both, or is it just that he's been watching Superman and Diana is around.

I men, if the joker is watching Batman, and Robin is there, is he really watching BOTH of them?

I guess we will see.

the way this story is presented, i smuch more like he is watching superman and wonder owman is just along. Like i would never know he is a wonder woman villain withthe story that was presented. they probably added him just to say: look a wonder woman villain, but completely forgot to introduce him as a wonder woman villain. brilliant stuff
we will see, but i wont hold my breathe, this is a superman story, not a wonder woman.

The implication is that Lois is the one true love of his life but circumstances keep them apart so there's unresolved sexual tension between them. The first roadblock in their relationship-to-be was her boyfriend Jonathan Carroll, now that role's been passed onto Wonder Woman, she's basically the false romantic lead, the wedge they threw between her and Superman, she's an alternative to Lois.

I mean the question that everyone debated was, who's better for Superman right now - if a) supporting character_Lois Lane or b) supporting character_Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman was offered to him…not the other way around.

I've been saying this before I even knew Wonder Woman belonged to the Superman office, Wonder Woman is, to all intents and purposes, a Superman supporting character. In every Superman-centric novel, there she is playing her little supporting role, and it's almost always a character assassination to boot. Obviously SM/WW skews veeeeeeery heavily towards the Superman fans

Agree, all those things of wonder woman being edited and really badly edited by superman office stinks. she is a extension of superman right now.

right now mark waid and chris samnee on black widow, meanwhile tomasi and finch writing pretty bad wonder woman

[ssupes]

the way this story is presented, i smuch more like he is watching superman and wonder owman is just along. Like i would never know he is a wonder woman villain withthe story that was presented. they probably added him just to say: look a wonder woman villain, but completely forgot to introduce him as a wonder woman villain. brilliant stuff
we will see, but i wont hold my breathe, this is a superman story, not a wonder woman.

I love baseless accusations without any proof and no patience to read future releases. Also I am pretty sure he is interested in both superheroes since he showed a keen interest in both of them. Also compared to Superman's rogues gallery and I mean no offense by this is that Wonder Woman's rogue gallery needs all the help it can get.
It's funny that people complain about this book yet it has the most appearances by Wonder Woman Rogues what with the Main Title keeping up the tradition of creating none interesting one time villains and Sensation comics more interested in Batman villains when the story isn't tackling feminist issues only without any super villains.
Also yes this is a Superman story but this book is supposed to show how the event impacts Superman's relationships (this one involving Wonder Woman), once the next crossover ends it will be back to regular scheduled programming.

Agree, all those things of wonder woman being edited and really badly edited by superman office stinks. she is a extension of superman right now.

right now mark waid and chris samnee on black widow, meanwhile tomasi and finch writing pretty bad wonder woman

Anyone else getting a sense of Deja vu?

[Tayswift]

I love baseless accusations without any proof and no patience to read future releases. Also I am pretty sure he is interested in both superheroes since he showed a keen interest in both of them. Also compared to Superman's rogues gallery and I mean no offense by this is that Wonder Woman's rogue gallery needs all the help it can get.
It's funny that people complain about this book yet it has the most appearances by Wonder Woman Rogues what with the Main Title keeping up the tradition of creating none interesting one time villains and Sensation comics more interested in Batman villains when the story isn't tackling feminist issues only without any super villains.
Also yes this is a Superman story but this book is supposed to show how the event impacts Superman's relationships (this one involving Wonder Woman), once the next crossover ends it will be back to regular scheduled programming.

there is nothing baseless on what I said, it is a superman story that villains united to tak ehim out.

Anyone else getting a sense of Deja vu?

no.

[ssupes]

there is nothing baseless on what I said, it is a superman story that villains united to tak ehim out.

no.

Only the small villains got sent to take him out while Angle man is playing the mastermind who has yet to reveal his true goal. Also is it so bad that someone else's villains attack another Superhero, I mean Angle man has already lasted longer then Cheetah against Batman so that's a plus.

[Sacred Knight]

the way this story is presented, i smuch more like he is watching superman and wonder owman is just along.

No it's not. Not when he's been doing this since Tomasi's run started. He might have even been shown watching them late in Soule's run, I can't quite recall. But at least as early as Circe/Magog; he's the one who sic'd Atomic Skull and Major Disaster on them. The presentation is that he has had an interest in them both together for some time, joining this current plot against Superman specifically after he had already been watching the two.

[Silvanus]

Romantics are quite fond of labeling consensual sex as "making love", it's what they do. Regardless the point remains that the only moral difference between "rape" and "making love" is consent.

You keep saying the lasso was used without "valid" consent, what was invalid about their consent? They are perfectly free to reject Wonder Woman's help.

Yes, they are perfectly "free" to reject Wonder Woman's help and remain imprisoned. The threat of continued imprisonment is a form of coercion. Coerced consent is not valid consent--no matter who's doing the coercing. So, at least arguably, their consent is not valid.