Superman Wonder Woman #21 [whole issue] Discussion and Spoilers

[Majesty]

Also is Lois, too ?

twist: Diana will date Lois after Superman leaves her >_>







It's the New52, I don't put anything past them :P

[Sacred Knight]

Just gonna mention how Lois out-alpha's Diana there. Not just her. But appeared the smartest person in the room in the very next scene.


I really just only hope that when Superman and Wonder Woman both break up with one another, their individual stories will be a lot stronger than the ones where they have to be written out of character to give us all another episode of "As the Cape Turns."

Contrived reason or not, if it ends things and causes them to be written MUCH better than they have been lately then I am all for it.

But if it ends and they both continue to be written the way they have been. Then it's pretty much for naught.

Relationships ending can be written VERY well and cause "growth" on both sides. If they MISS on that opportunity...

Superman's characterization doesn't need to change, outside of this most recent unreasonable outburst. In general though he's already being written well. And the only place Diana is written poorly right now is her own title, and that has nothing to do with Superman.

[Silvanus]

Well sure...if they weren't in a high tech holding facility and were both women were wearing short frilly teddies...

You might be overthinking it a little. I think the panel's good for a laugh. (Not that Lois and Diana is really such a bad idea for the 21st Century!)

[brettc1]

You might be overthinking it a little.

Silvanus is telling me I'm overthinking. Last rounds, folks, the world is clearly coming to an end...

[Tayswift]

You might be overthinking it a little. I think the panel's good for a laugh. (Not that Lois and Diana is really such a bad idea for the 21st Century!)

the panel wasnt funny, it didnt had any himor tone into it.
it is not a.bad idea, because the characters actually have chemistry, much more than superman/ww. if should exist a love triangle it should be supes and ww going after lois. too bad dc.is too male heteronormative

[Majesty]

You might be overthinking it a little. I think the panel's good for a laugh. (Not that Lois and Diana is really such a bad idea for the 21st Century!)

The more one says Lois and Diana the more sense it makes surprisingly enough :P But I doubt that DC would do that to Diana. Superman breaks her heart so she gets with Lois? The timing would just make her look bad.

Down the road, perhaps it's something to look into. But not after the breakup with Supes that's coming. Gotta say though, Diana and Lois would be a swerve no one would see coming. Now whether they'd write it correctly and do such a thing justice is the question.

[brettc1]

The more one says Lois and Diana the more sense it makes surprisingly enough :P But I doubt that DC would do that to Diana. Superman breaks her heart so she gets with Lois? The timing would just make her look bad.

Down the road, perhaps it's something to look into. But not after the breakup with Supes that's coming. Gotta say though, Diana and Lois would be a swerve no one would see coming. Now whether they'd write it correctly and do such a thing justice is the question.

I think we need and Diana and Lois appreciation thread.

With lots of pictures.

[Silvanus]

the panel wasnt funny, it didnt had any himor tone into it.

Well, it made a few of us laugh, and I think that this was probably intentional; the similarities to a "lover's caught" scenario are pretty much too strong to be accidental. It's not that the idea of Diana and Lois is inherently ridiculous; the humorous overtone comes from the contrast between what's actually happening (Superman catches Wonder Woman helping interrogators behind his back) and what it looks like (Superman catches Wonder Woman and Lois doing something else behind his back.)

[Majesty]

I think we need and Diana and Lois appreciation thread.

With lots of pictures.

I have no idea what would give people that idea.. (innocent face) I mean there's absolutely nothing -



Well that doesn't..



If we actually look at the -




.....

okay then.. >_>

Well, it made a few of us laugh, and I think the humorous overtone must have been intentional; it's just too recognizable as a "lovers caught" situation for the similarities to be accidental. Of course, in the context of the story, it's a serious moment, with no monkey business, in which Superman realizes that Diana has helped to interrogate his friends behind her back. But, insofar as it looks as if Diana and Lois were doing something else behind Clarks' back, it's a panel with a wink and a nod--a little joke rather than a plot point. I agree with you, though, that it would be cool if DC would actually be open to exploring such a relationship for real.

Would be interesting honestly. Lois seems to be getting a more active role and if memory serves just saved both Superman and Wonder Woman from that black hole.

Wonder Woman went back for Supes, to 'pull' him out, and it was going to take them both, but Lois and some of the others shot it causing it to explode within itself to create a black hole and saving Wonder Woman and Superman's life.

Gotta admit.. if Lois did that more often then I could definitely see her with Diana.

(Saves Superheroes lives by blowing up the bad thing with her futuristic weapon)

Scene after the aftermath.

Lois(while throwing down the gun): Well, that was different.

I like THAT Lois.

Her fearlessness and pretty much amazon 'spirit' and 'never back down' attitude is something that could be explored if you want to develop a chemistry with her and Diana.

But within all honesty it would take a writer to do the story right in order to make it happen to do both characters justice should they decide to go down that path. because in all honesty, it IS a very interesting pairing and one that would shake a lot of foundations.

Consider the fact that Wonder Woman and Lois Lane are almost universally considered two of the BIGGEST and most ICONIC and Recognizable Female Comic Book Characters of all time. Especially from a Culture standpoint. So placing those two into a lesbian relationship(not fling..relationship), you had BETTER bring it from a writing standpoint because that is huge.

If you can tell a wonderful storyline that causes growth on both sides and you nail it on the 'end of the day' conversations those two are capable of, as well as what Lois's active role in whatever Diana is doing. Which "can" be done, and it can be done extremely well.

It's just a question of whether or not they are willing to do THAT.. or if they just want the visual of Diana waking up next to a Lois wrapped in a sheet. Because if it's only that, then it would only do well for the sake of 'shock value' and those two characters deserve better than that if they are gonna go that route, particularly with all that route represents and all the eyes on them.

You just say the names Lois Lane and Wonder Woman, they are your number 1 and 2 most recognizable female comic characters of all time. You put them in the relationship.. and the eyes of the world are paying attention. So if you're gonna do it.. go all the way. Not for shock value.. but for actual story, and make it great. That is all I'd ask if DC did go that route.

[brettc1]

Well, it made a few of us laugh, and I think that this was probably intentional; the similarities to a "lover's caught" scenario are pretty much too strong to be accidental. It's not that the idea of Diana and Lois is inherently ridiculous; the humorous overtone comes from the contrast between what's actually happening (Superman catches Wonder Woman helping interrogators behind his back) and what it looks like (Superman catches Wonder Woman and Lois doing something else behind his back.)

Seriously? Because it looks to me like Wonder Woman is helping to question Lois Lane with the golden lasso in a high tech interrogation room in front of a generic scientist type while the whole thing is being recorded for government analysts.

I've count myself as having an excellent imagination when it comes to lesbian super-chick scenarios, and to me this really doesn't look like anything but what it is.

[Silvanus]

Seriously? Because it looks to me like Wonder Woman is helping to question Lois Lane with the golden lasso in a high tech interrogation room in front of a generic scientist type while the whole thing is being recorded for government analysts.

That is what it is. But if we let ourselves look at that panel out of context for a moment,the scientist and high-tech equipment (though not completely absent from the panel) are easy to ignore. In the foreground, we see (or at least, I see) a woman holding a rope that's lightly tied around another woman, who is standing right next to her; both women smiling or smirking; the first woman's boyfriend walking in and angrily asking "And WHAT are you doing?"; and the first woman responding, "I know this doesn't look good." Those elements remind some of us of a different kind of scenario, which is different enough from the actual plot that it makes us laugh. But, it's the kind of thing, like many things, that either makes you laugh or it doesn't; analyzing it probably doesn't do much, I realize, other than make me look silly.

ETA--admittedly, looking at the book rather than at the panel as cropped for in this thread, we do see the scientist, which I think puts the scene in context and somewhat weakens the argument that this scene has intentional humorous overtones. But I still find the panel--and especially the cropped version--good for a laugh.

smww21.jpg

[Lax]

Superman: "Why?"

Wonder Woman: "Why what?"

Superman: "Make me understand why you didn't tell me you were heading here?"

1. She originally wanted to go with you and you told her "No", which left her to make her own decisions independent of you.

2. Why is it that when things actually are your fault you blame other people yet when things aren't your fault you blame yourself? This is an annoying trend with Superman along with the male disposability and general lack of self worth.

Wonder Woman: "Trevor said the fastest way to get your people home was for me to break in and get them talking in front of the cctv's... convince the government they weren't part of some secret scheme and acting as foot soldiers in your shadow, working to destabilize the country in some way."

Superman: "And of course the only thing that Trevor said would be definitive was the use of your lasso."

Wonder Woman: "Yes."

Superman: "So you didn't think I could persuade the president to release them."

Considering they got kidnapped under the President's orders/watch and the Suicide Squad almost killed you under that very same President's orders/watch... it's a distinct possibility that you'd fail to sway Obama's opinion.

Wonder Woman: "I didn't know what to expect, and I didn't want to risk not freeing them when I had the chance. I wanted to help, Clark."

Superman: "By doing an end run around me because you knew I wouldn't condone the lasso method."

Except she's used the lasso on people around you before and historically you've had no issue with it. What reason would she have to think it's suddenly a problem now? It's one thing to be inconsistent, it's quite another to be inconsistent and expect other people to predict you anyway.

Wonder Woman: "I asked each of them for permission."

Superman: "And you think that makes it okay, Diana?

Yes Superman, consent does make things okay.

It's the difference between "rape" and "lovemaking".

To get along they figured they needed to go along. they were under duress. They wanted out."

So instead of blaming any stress they endured on the government that actually caused it... you blame Wonder Woman because she freed them in a manner you dislike even after she covered her bases by getting their explicit permission.

Wonder Woman: "I knew they'd be nothing incriminating or incendiary about their answers."

Superman: "And if someone in some government cubicle watching the interview uploads don't agree with your assessment, what then?

And if Obama, in his wisdom, decided he wasn't in the mood to release your friends without the lasso, what then?

Wonder Woman: "We find a way to resolve the situation... together."

Okay, this was not a good comeback on Wondy's part. If the government is evil take it out like you would any other form of evil.

Superman: "I asked you to lay low-- keep some distance because I didn't want you getting tainted by this. I needed to deal with it alone."

1. You're not her boss.

2. You didn't need to do it alone, you wanted to do it alone and all according to shabby logic.

Wonder Woman: "If a red flag went up on any of your friends, we'd be dealing with it right now."

Superman: "You used your lasso on all of them already?"

Wonder Woman: "Yes. I did."

Superman: "EVERYONE'S GOING HOME!"

You realize she had already secured their freedom right?

Wonder Woman: "Hang on-- I've got you! RRNN"

Superman: "Let me go, Diana-- I don't want this thing taking both of us!"

Right, because it's acceptable for you to die for the women yet somehow not acceptable for the women to die for you. Disposable male at it's finest.

Wonder Woman: "Not happening, so shut up!

Yeah, tell him.

All this... you standing here... lives on the line to save mine... I've put the people I care about in harm's way too many damn times...

Right, because obviously your life isn't worth that kind of sacrifice.

Also, how is their being in danger your fault and not the government that both kidnapped them and placed them in a room with super villains? Assign responsibility to where it actually belongs.

Wonder Woman: "Clark... you've been hit bad."

Superman: "Everyone at risk because of my weakened state... That ends now."

Wonder Woman: "Why do you have the Justice League teleport transponder?"

Superman: "There's something I need to do, Diana."

Wonder Woman: "I'm coming with you this time."

Lois: "Let me go, too, Clark, I can redirect the narrative and write a story that--"

Superman: "Look... you both made a distinct choice, and as much as I hate even saying it... pure and simple... you betrayed my trust. You may want to... rationalize it for yourselves, but when all's said and done, that's what you did, so don't expect me to be happy about it or tell you it's okay. I can't do that... and I won't."

In relation to Wonder Woman you've completely lost your mind.

[Tayswift]

That is what it is. But if we let ourselves look at that panel out of context for a moment,the scientist and high-tech equipment (though not completely absent from the panel) are easy to ignore. In the foreground, we see (or at least, I see) a woman holding a rope that's lightly tied around another woman, who is standing right next to her; both women smiling or smirking; the first woman's boyfriend walking in and angrily asking "And WHAT are you doing?"; and the first woman responding, "I know this doesn't look good." Those elements remind some of us of a different kind of scenario, which is different enough from the actual plot that it makes us laugh. But, it's the kind of thing, like many things, that either makes you laugh or it doesn't; analyzing it probably doesn't do much, I realize, other than make me look silly.

ETA--admittedly, looking at the book rather than at the panel as cropped for in this thread, we do see the scientist, which I think puts the scene in context and somewhat weakens the argument that this scene has intentional humorous overtones. But I still find the panel--and especially the cropped version--good for a laugh.

smww21.jpg

wonder woman isn't smirking, she only see happy to see superman and lois isn't smiling. i really didn't saw anything humorous at it, the dialogue leave little to imagination because it looks like wonder woman is colaborating with goverment to interrogate lois lane, that looks bad.

[dangleo61288]

I think we need and Diana and Lois appreciation thread.

With lots of pictures.

Done. 10 char

[Silvanus]

1.
Yes Superman, consent does make things okay.

It's the difference between "rape" and "lovemaking".

His point is that "consent" may not really be consent if it's under duress. If the scientist said to Lois, "Make love to me or I'll keep you imprisoned here," we probably wouldn't call that real lovemaking; it would be more like an attempt at rape by coercion. This case is more ambiguous than that, but I don't think Superman would be crazy to argue that the consent was not free and valid.

So instead of blaming any stress they endured on the government that actually caused it... you blame Wonder Woman because she freed them in a manner you dislike even after she covered her bases by getting their explicit permission.

I assume he blames the government for inflicting the stress. He blames Wonder Woman for using to lasso to interrogate his friends without their free, valid consent.