Superman Wonder Woman #21 [whole issue] Discussion and Spoilers

[brettc1]

If one panel from an issue going on two years ago is your only evidence, you're doing your argument no favors. She wasn't happy there. I get that. We all get that. That does not suddenly mean that their relationship has featured a triangle.

And with Doomsday, no, you are flat out wrong. The story visualizes Clark's consciousness battling against a completely separate consciousness. So it does say so. Its not him, period. Its Doomsday with a twisted perversion of Clark's memories. That is not the same thing in any shape or form as just saying its Clark without the inhibitions.

Sure it is. He finds Lois attractive. Part of him regrets it didn't work out and Doomsday exploited that.

I don't see how producing evidence makes an argument LESS compelling.

[Aula_Magna]

A completely separate consciousness with access to Clark's memories. That makes sense like having access to my neighbor's kitchen from my completely separate house. I'm sorry but that big growling creature didn't call Lois Lane in the middle of the night.

We learned Superman's got a longing for Lois Lane when Hector Hammond hacked is mind.

[Sacred Knight]

Sure it is. He finds Lois attractive

Yes he does. I never said he didn't. Doesn't prove anything in regards to evidence of a love triangle. Just like Diana making a face one time time over a disrupted date doesn't constitute a love triangle either.

Part of him regrets it didn't work out and Doomsday exploited that.

First, this is just an assumption as he never says this, but it is a believable assumption, so for the sake of this argument I'll assume its true. So what? Everyone has regrets. Doesn't mean they're not satisfied in their present. You guys aren't producing evidence that he's being pulled toward someone else in the here and now when with someone else. Or vice versa. That's a triangle. Knowing a guy finds other girls attractive is not a triangle. That's the idea proposed and what I'm arguing. That DC has fostered a triangle within the duration of this relationship that has harmed Diana and Lois as characters. It has not.

A completely separate consciousness with access to Clark's memories.

Which are then perverted by a monstrosity. So its reliable for absolutely nothing in regards to the real man. The creature had an augmented intelligence from the access to Clark's mind. And it had control of body at that stage. Again, and I can't stress it enough, something we're flat out shown. The symbolic war of the minds is portrayed to the reader for the rest of the crossover. So yes the creature did do it. Blame the story if you don't find that believable.

[ManSinha]

I think another piece to that may be found in one of the recent Superman books where Clark wakes up after having flared, in his birthday suit and in Lois' bed When Lois tries to tell him that she almost fell in love with him, he tells her that he has someone - now the Diana / Kal liaison may be public from when Hessia outed them but Lois sure acts like she did not recall it in the moment but Clark's reply sort of stops any further discussion on those lines with Lois then saying that she has someone as well.

[brettc1]

Yes he does. I never said he didn't. Doesn't prove anything in regards to evidence of a love triangle. Just like Diana making a face one time time over a disrupted date doesn't constitute a love triangle either.


First, this is just an assumption as he never says this, but it is a believable assumption, so for the sake of this argument I'll assume its true. So what? Everyone has regrets. Doesn't mean they're not satisfied in their present. You guys aren't producing evidence that he's being pulled toward someone else in the here and now when with someone else. Or vice versa. That's a triangle. Knowing a guy finds other girls attractive is not a triangle. That's the idea proposed and what I'm arguing. That DC has fostered a triangle within the duration of this relationship that has harmed Diana and Lois as characters. It has not.


Which are then perverted by a monstrosity. So its reliable for absolutely nothing in regards to the real man. The creature had an augmented intelligence from the access to Clark's mind. And it had control of body at that stage. Again, and I can't stress it enough, something we're flat out shown. The symbolic war of the minds is portrayed to the reader for the rest of the crossover. So yes the creature did do it. Blame the story if you don't find that believable.

Doomsday can't speak.

At least not in complete sentences. Not that I recall.

So how is it that in the mind war he can suddenly talk? He has to be accessing Superman's memories in order to form language. As you say its intelligence is augmented.

So yes, it's possible in assimilating Superman's memories what we get is a perverted form of Superman - a kind of warped mental clone - but it's still based on the original template of Clark.

So the question then is - why not go after Diana? Fear? Seems unlikely. What seems more likely is that the creature is tapping into base desires. It's a common human condition that folks rarely fantasize about what they already have.

I don't see why a love triangle is such a horrible idea. It's common enough practice in drama. Unless one is uncertain which way the cards are going to fall...

[sram15]

Funny how the same things that you guys are saying now about Superman being possessed by the doomsday virus were being said about Lois when she was possessed by Brainiac. (This was in another thread btw.....I believe the discussion was about Lois revealing Clark's secret and how she would never have done such a thing) Despite the fact that Lois tells Clark, in the same issue where she interrupts Clark and Diana while they are kissing (this is why I think Diana made that frowning face....the interruption, not the person) that as soon as she could, she would reveal Clark's secret, the argument was that it couldn't be taken too seriously because she was possessed. By that logic, whatever Clark said while possessed by the Doomsday virus should be taken with a grain of salt.

[brettc1]

Funny how the same things that you guys are saying now about Superman being possessed by the doomsday virus were being said about Lois when she was possessed by Brainiac. (This was in another thread btw.....I believe the discussion was about Lois revealing Clark's secret and how she would never have done such a thing) Despite the fact that Lois tells Clark, in the same issue where she interrupts Clark and Diana while they are kissing (this is why I think Diana made that frowning face....the interruption, not the person) that as soon as she could, she would reveal Clark's secret, the argument was that it couldn't be taken too seriously because she was possessed. By that logic, whatever Clark said while possessed by the Doomsday virus should be taken with a grain of salt.

I think when it comes to characterization, there's a big difference between betraying the sacred trust of a dear friend and making a "drunk dial" to a person you had the hots for.

Edit - to me this seems like Buffy vampire's. When you get vamped in Buffy, your soul goes away and a demon takes its place and animates your corpse, but it has access to all your memories, and it basically takes on your personality[albeit a warped and twisted one]

The result is if you like poetry, the vampire you likes poetry. If you're secretly gay, the vampire you is gay. And if you want to get into Lois Lane's pants, vampire you will be sniffing around Lois Lane's apartment looking to get some.

[Sacred Knight]

So the question then is - why not go after Diana? Fear? Seems unlikely. What seems more likely is that the creature is tapping into base desires. It's a common human condition that folks rarely fantasize about what they already have.

That's exactly what it was doing. I mean, at its base level, Lois is hot. And Clark had a thing for her to boot. That is certainly in the brain, that's there for the melded monster to access, absolutely. But that's not a reflection of what the sound mind and body Clark wants. As you say, there's forbidden thoughts anyone has deep down that they'll never admit to. Those are basically harmless though till they start bubbling to the surface, then there's an issue. And this of course never happened. No insinuations that Clark's flame for Lois was still burning despite being with Diana, never implied it was some sort of roadblock in their relationship they needed to address. . That's triangle material. Instead it was a face value thing that happened that obviously they both understood the reasoning behind, considering it never came up for even a moment in the aftermath as a problem. And it'd be really contrived to go back and make it an issue now. "Hey remember when you drunk dialed Lois when Doomsday was in your body months ago? I have a problem with that now." That's like, basic "my wife is crazy" stand up comedic material there.

And I never said a love triangle is a horrible idea. Tayswift did. And that's a fair opinion. But she said this while also making the assertion that that's what they've been doing this whole time. And that's simply a falsehood I pointed out. We have an instance of one artist drawing Diana looking annoyed that a ghost-Lois interrupted a date. And then Superdoom calling up Lois. That's all, in three years worth of stories across all titles they've appeared together in. How that's playing a triangle angle and hurting lois and Diana in the crossfires I can't begin to imagine.

[brettc1]

That's exactly what it was doing. I mean, at its base level, Lois is hot. And Clark had a thing for her to boot. That is certainly in the brain, that's there for the melded monster to access, absolutely. But that's not a reflection of what the sound mind and body Clark wants. As you say, there's forbidden thoughts anyone has deep down that they'll never admit to. Those are basically harmless though till they start bubbling to the surface, then there's an issue. And this of course never happened. No insinuations that Clark's flame for Lois was still burning despite being with Diana, never implied it was some sort of roadblock in their relationship they needed to address. . That's triangle material. Instead it was a face value thing that happened that obviously they both understood the reasoning behind, considering it never came up for even a moment in the aftermath as a problem. And it'd be really contrived to go back and make it an issue now. "Hey remember when you drunk dialed Lois when Doomsday was in your body months ago? I have a problem with that now." That's like, basic "my wife is crazy" stand up comedic material there.

And I never said a love triangle is a horrible idea. Tayswift did. And that's a fair opinion. But she said this while also making the assertion that that's what they've been doing this whole time. And that's simply a falsehood I pointed out. We have an instance of one artist drawing Diana looking annoyed that a ghost-Lois interrupted a date. And then Superdoom calling up Lois. That's all, in three years worth of stories across all titles they've appeared together in. How that's playing a triangle angle and hurting lois and Diana in the crossfires I can't begin to imagine.

And again, for those coming in late...



Forget the words coming out of mouths - this is NOT how people who want to be "just friends" touch each other.

And no, I don't mean the stabbing.

[ManSinha]

Is Lois doing the touching here? To me it seems that Clark is trying to gently disengage himself and turn the topic of conversation Also notice the emphatic "anything"

[Tayswift]

Funny how the same things that you guys are saying now about Superman being possessed by the doomsday virus were being said about Lois when she was possessed by Brainiac. (This was in another thread btw.....I believe the discussion was about Lois revealing Clark's secret and how she would never have done such a thing) Despite the fact that Lois tells Clark, in the same issue where she interrupts Clark and Diana while they are kissing (this is why I think Diana made that frowning face....the interruption, not the person) that as soon as she could, she would reveal Clark's secret, the argument was that it couldn't be taken too seriously because she was possessed. By that logic, whatever Clark said while possessed by the Doomsday virus should be taken with a grain of salt.

different things, because loisbrainiac'd had many chances to reveal his identity but didn't made it. also she only revealed it to free dumb clark of being blackmailed. again different situation.
also clark even dating diana, still has a strong connection to lois and was still longing for her, so what brettc says is very true


well superman is also touching her hand, and he seems to hold her hand not to take away from his face. On the bus he also touches lois ahdns,a nd condesa thinks thay are a couple.

My problem with love triangles at least on this case, is the rariry of the superman comics passing the bechdel test. Have two feminist icons on a love tringle with superman is stupid and retrograde. wonder woman and lois should be like ivy and harley, including the lesbian not so subtext

[SonOfBaldwin]

I'm sorry. But this wardrobe. I just...I can't. Especially when we have her looking so perfect in JL.

I second this emotion. Completely.

[LoveStar]

The story is moving along and interesting set ups but the cause of the "conflict" feels and is petty. I kind of understand Clark's reaction, his pride is shot, feels a bit useless, going through his own emotional rollercoaster and wrath seems to be causing his anger problems (Action Comics hinting). But I still don't like the over dramatics. Truth as a whole has been inconsistent and underwhelming. Hopefully the next part is better.

Diana did what she thought was right, which I believe was. She asked for permission and all of them were willing to answer the questions. The government can calm down with the paranoia and the people can go home with no worry the government will kidnap them again.
There is nothing wrong with using the lasso. She uses it all the time. Clark didn't have a problem with the lasso method before this so why is it now?
Diana is trying to protect him. That is what she does regardless of who it is and loving someone does not make you pathetic, nor dependent. Diana showed independence and wasn't backing down when he wanted her to sit and wait. That's not what she does.

Next issue team up is great. There shouldn't be any petty unnecesary catfights. Lobdell thought that was cool and funny. It's not. Honestly, I don't take anything he writes seriously.

I like Mahnke's art. But Diana's costume needs to change back to the original or to Fabok's design.

[Sacred Knight]

Its definitely petty on Clark's part. That's why it had better be a result of Wrath's influence making his rage bubble to unnatural degrees. Its the only way it makes any sense as I can't see any sound person feeling betrayed by what Diana did. At absolute worst, a believable response from Superman would have been "Diana, I didn't want to get you mixed up in this....but thanks." That would be Superman. Feeling betrayed just because she didn't stay put as he asked (she's not obligated to do what anyone tells her anyway)? Off the charts crazy.

And I wouldn't worry about any catfighting. Lois and Diana, for all their brief interactions thus far, have gotten along just fine. They even had a couple sweet moments in Doomed. I expect that to continue.

[ManSinha]

well superman is also touching her hand, and he seems to hold her hand not to take away from his face.

Different strokes for different folks - I am of course biased - see my avatar - but in this case I am reminded of a nephew - cute lil fellow and first kid in the family after a good long while - as soon as he saw anyone's hand coming towards his cheek he immediately held it to keep it away as he had his cheek pinched on a couple of occasions - see the next panel - Clark immediately changes the subject - which makes me want to think he is holding on to keep away Lois' hand from lingering

Just my $0.03 (adjusted for inflation)