How Does No One Know Nightwing is Alive?

[OWL45]

I agree about the whole tied to a chair. I think that was the breaking point for me as far as definitely needing a change. I personally don't mind the umasking because I like the idea of the new direction. Seems like Johns had some other things planned like your suggesting but behind the scenes things changed. It would be interesting to see some of that develop potentially down the road in regards to the Dick/Owlman story elements. I also feel that way with a lot of the dangling plot lines with the court of owls story Grayson family story plots also.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

Once Spyral starts their cleanup, no one will remember Dick is alive besides Batman, maybe.

As it stands, the only people who know he's alive are people that can reasonably protect themselves against Spyral. I'd say Catwoman has already forgotten. She's the most vulnerable.

[RobinFan4880]

The unmasking was a dumb idea in the first place, poorly handled in Forever Evil and basically ignored in the Bat-line. Nothing good came from it. Dick could have easily joined Spyral as a spy without the unmasking. Dick could have died in Forever Evil without the unmasking. Nothing good came from the unmasking. It was a big, poorly-conceived reveal that added nothing to the story and only served to, yet again, downgrade and hurt Dick.

Dick should not be a pawn, a damsel or a gimmick. He should be one the great super heroes.

[exile001]

The unmasking was a dumb idea in the first place, poorly handled in Forever Evil and basically ignored in the Bat-line. Nothing good came from it. Dick could have easily joined Spyral as a spy without the unmasking. Dick could have "died" in Forever Evil without the unmasking. Nothing good came from the unmasking. It was a big, poorly-conceived reveal.

This I agree with. I find it hillarious that DC learned NOTHING from the whole Spider-man unmasking debacle.

And, as with the reveal that Bruce Wayne funded Batman, Incorporated, anyone who now does not at least suspect Bruce is Batman is an absolute moron. The end of FE with Luthor putting it together made me laugh out loud, like he could only do it because he saw the Bruce/Dick hug. Bad writing.

[exile001]

Yes. The character has been stagnant since the start of the New 52. I think there was a few different oppositions on the table and they decided on this direction at the end. They could have been more decisive regarding all of this logistically but something needed to be done.

Yeah, because a decent writer couldn't have fixed Nightwing, a character that held his own book for 150 odd issues before an non-Nightwing writer decided to make him Batman. He had his own city and supporting cast, before another editorial decision dictated that all had to go.

That and being able to go three issues without having to tie into a Batman story in the New 52.

[OWL45]

I agree he should not be a pawn or a gimmick and a great super hero but he was being written to look incompetent. I hear what your saying about Night Wing could have joined Spyral without the unmasking but the Nightwing identity is already associated with certain ideas to fans. I think to make this work in some ways they needed a clean break. In regards to the spy angle inherent in the set up of this direction their is no room for him to fail do to the danger inherent in the mission. He has to be written as being a competent character that can thrive on his own and excel at being a spy or the mission will be a failure.

[OWL45]

exile 001his rogues gallery compared to other characters was not very impressive. Yes he did have his own city but in this story line he will be facing global threats. I agree the tie ins hurt kyle Higgins run. Although I feel like in that run he was not depicted to be a very competent hero. He struggled to beat very mediocre villians IMHO.

[Stormcrow]

DC completely jumped the gun on this, it makes absolutely no sense unless the whole Justice League are massive dicks and each and every one of them agreed to lie to the world and Dick's closest friend by telling them he died.

But then they're saying that the whole world actually saw Dick die, somehow... Given Luthor's new position, it's clear that Cyborg didn't broadcast him "killing" Dick, so did he fabricate the footage?

It just doesn't work, and DC is past caring at this point. I'm really looking forward to Grayson, but I guess it's best to just disregard how we got to that point.

[OWL45]

I agree and it would be a waste of energy to continue. I think it will resolve itself some how but just not how some might want at this point in time.

[Dzetoun]

DC completely jumped the gun on this, it makes absolutely no sense unless the whole Justice League are massive dicks and each and every one of them agreed to lie to the world and Dick's closest friend by telling them he died.

But then they're saying that the whole world actually saw Dick die, somehow... Given Luthor's new position, it's clear that Cyborg didn't broadcast him "killing" Dick, so did he fabricate the footage?

It just doesn't work, and DC is past caring at this point. I'm really looking forward to Grayson, but I guess it's best to just disregard how we got to that point.

I actually wonder how much of Forever Evil King and Seeley got to see as they were working up their transition to Grayson. As I recall, Seeley said that they knew how Forever Evil was going to come out, and knew that Selina and Luthor knew that Dick was still alive, but they didn't say anything about seeing the art. If they just saw the script, that might explain what happened. There is no point in the actual words where the Justice League members acknowledge seeing Dick. It is just obvious from the artwork that they have to have seen him since he was standing right there when they emerged from the Firestorm Matrix. In fact, as I recall, nothing in the words acknowledges the Selina, Vic, and Bruce see Dick's encounter with Owlman, it's just that they are standing right there when it happens. Given that, and some poor wording in the script, King and Seeley may have assumed that the scene with Firestorm and the scene with Dick and Owlman were actually taking place in different parts of the Watchtower. Alternatively, King and Seeley may have seen an early draft of the script where these encounters really did take place in separate rooms, and when that was later changed they just weren't notified.

[Badou]

DC just doesn't give a ****. Unmasking Nightwing was a gimmick to fuel Johns Forever Evil event. Nothing more. Oh, and I guess to serve as a reason how Lex found out Batman was Bruce Wayne to set the two up for their interactions in Justice League. The thing is neither of those reasons are there to help promote Dick or to prop up his own character. It happened to service other characters at his expense, which is why the character continues to be seen as this Batman-lite or B-list hero. Johns pretty much lost interest in the character after his usefulness was spent.

I've sort of discussed to death the reason why I think the Batman line doesn't want to deal with the Nightwing mess. It all came from Johns and a different editorial department and they would rather not deal with it right now and focus on their own stuff. Since you'd think that news cameras would be at the Wayne mansion gate waiting to try to get an interview with him about his connection to Nightwing. They didn't want to do anything like that so they sent Dick away to be a spy for a while to keep his story out of the way. Still, I think another plot hole is how does the public or the Batman family know he is dead?

Sure, Catwoman, Lex, Cyborg, Owlman the JL and the JLA know he is alive, but no one saw Dick die and there wasn't a body to show the Batman family members. When Damian died people like Dick saw him die and there was even a body, or when Bruce "died" people saw it and there were remains as well. You don't have that here. So unless they do something like they tried to do in the original Nightwing 30, where Bruce used a fake body, the public and the Batman family would only know he is dead because Bruce told them, but I have a tough time believing Tim, Babs, and Alfred would just believe Bruce when he doesn't come back with any evidence or proof Dick had died. Tim didn't believe Superman that Batman had died before and Superman actually thought he was dead.

It was just a bad setup overall and I think it is something we just have to mostly ignore going forward, but I do wish it was all put together a lot better.

[Dzetoun]

DC just doesn't give a ****. Unmasking Nightwing was a gimmick to fuel Johns Forever Evil event. Nothing more. Oh, and I guess to serve as a reason how Lex found out Batman was Bruce Wayne to set the two up for their interactions in Justice League. The thing is neither of those reasons are there to help promote Dick or to prop up his own character. It happened to service other characters at his expense, which is why the character continues to be seen as this Batman-lite or B-list hero. Johns pretty much lost interest in the character after his usefulness was spent.

I've sort of discussed to death the reason why I think the Batman line doesn't want to deal with the Nightwing mess. It all came from Johns and a different editorial department and they would rather not deal with it right now and focus on their own stuff. Since you'd think that news cameras would be at the Wayne mansion gate waiting to try to get an interview with him about his connection to Nightwing. They didn't want to do anything like that so they sent Dick away to be a spy for a while to keep his story out of the way. Still, I think another plot hole is how does the public or the Batman family know he is dead?

We often disagree, Badou, but I have come to think you are probably right about this. Johns came up with this storyline and dropped it back on the Batman editors, who don't want to face it or deal with its implications and are determined to ignore it as much as possible, no matter how outrageous that is when you think about it. In some ways I can understand how they feel. DC evidently has little culture of consultation or coordination even within editorial offices (witness the Devin Grayson interview where she talks about how nobody consulted her, the Nightwing writer at the time, about destroying Bludhaven, and she only learned of the mess with Infinite Crisis after the fact) much less between them, so the Batman Office may well have been caught flat-footed by the mess, and horrified and resentful when they considered its logical implications. I know if I was running the Batman Office and somebody told me, "We are unmasking Dick Grayson to the world, deal with it," I'd order a case of antacids. I don't agree that the spy angle was invented solely to deal with this, it feels too well-developed for that, and the fact that they had the idea ready to ask for pitches speaks that it was an option they had been considering. But judging by how they have reacted to this development so far the Batman Office simply does not want to acknowledge or deal with the unmasking, and barely wants to acknowledge the death linked to it. Probably their attitude is "Johns created this, let the Justice League office figure out how to deal with it."

I am also having some sympathy with the opinion you've expressed that it would be better if the character of Dick Grayson could get clear of the Batman Office altogether. I did not used to think that, but the sheer determination they are putting into ignoring the obvious needs of this storyline has made me rethink. However, there just isn't any other place for Dick to "live." Young Justice is a shambles, he has no connections with the Superman line, and he doesn't fit into the Dark line. That leaves the Justice League Office, and in a fair world since they created the mess they would have to deal with the repercussions. And perhaps we will see some of that, since Luthor does know the secret and has determined Batman's identity. And I have a better opinion of Johns than you, although I am disappointed in him. I think he probably did originally intend for Dick to have a much larger and more positive role in Forever Evil, but was prevented by marketing concerns and other factors from going through with that. But, all that said, it isn't a fair world and Dick, like it or not, is still tied to the BatVerse. One can only hope that the Batman editors manage to rally and do a better job than they have done so far.

[oasis1313]

We often disagree, Badou, but I have come to think you are probably right about this. Johns came up with this storyline and dropped it back on the Batman editors, who don't want to face it or deal with its implications and are determined to ignore it as much as possible, no matter how outrageous that is when you think about it. In some ways I can understand how they feel. DC evidently has little culture of consultation or coordination even within editorial offices (witness the Devin Grayson interview where she talks about how nobody consulted her, the Nightwing writer at the time, about destroying Bludhaven, and she only learned of the mess with Infinite Crisis after the fact) much less between them, so the Batman Office may well have been caught flat-footed by the mess, and horrified and resentful when they considered its logical implications. I know if I was running the Batman Office and somebody told me, "We are unmasking Dick Grayson to the world, deal with it," I'd order a case of antacids. I don't agree that the spy angle was invented solely to deal with this, it feels too well-developed for that, and the fact that they had the idea ready to ask for pitches speaks that it was an option they had been considering. But judging by how they have reacted to this development so far the Batman Office simply does not want to acknowledge or deal with the unmasking, and barely wants to acknowledge the death linked to it. Probably their attitude is "Johns created this, let the Justice League office figure out how to deal with it."

I am also having some sympathy with the opinion you've expressed that it would be better if the character of Dick Grayson could get clear of the Batman Office altogether. I did not used to think that, but the sheer determination they are putting into ignoring the obvious needs of this storyline has made me rethink. However, there just isn't any other place for Dick to "live." Young Justice is a shambles, he has no connections with the Superman line, and he doesn't fit into the Dark line. That leaves the Justice League Office, and in a fair world since they created the mess they would have to deal with the repercussions. And perhaps we will see some of that, since Luthor does know the secret and has determined Batman's identity. And I have a better opinion of Johns than you, although I am disappointed in him. I think he probably did originally intend for Dick to have a much larger and more positive role in Forever Evil, but was prevented by marketing concerns and other factors from going through with that. But, all that said, it isn't a fair world and Dick, like it or not, is still tied to the BatVerse. One can only hope that the Batman editors manage to rally and do a better job than they have done so far.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. As far as a place to "live", maybe Dick could go to Paradise Island with Wonder Woman (if Paradise Island still exists in the new 52) and sleep with all the Amazons. I wasn't particularly disappointed in Johns because 60+ years of being a Grayson fan have taught me not to expect very much. Devin also mentioned in her interview that Didio expressed his "opinion" of Nightwing to her more than once. When you have managing editorial with attitudes toward the character ranging between "don't give a ****" and "hate his guts", there's nobody to stick up for Nightwing; it's almost as if they RESENT the character's popularity. Anyone who tries--such as Higgins most recently--are utterly demoralized and continually shot down. I think it would be good to send Dick to Earth 4 or Earth 18 and start his adventures on a world where he is the ONLY hero.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

This I agree with. I find it hillarious that DC learned NOTHING from the whole Spider-man unmasking debacle.

And, as with the reveal that Bruce Wayne funded Batman, Incorporated, anyone who now does not at least suspect Bruce is Batman is an absolute moron. The end of FE with Luthor putting it together made me laugh out loud, like he could only do it because he saw the Bruce/Dick hug. Bad writing.

Batman INC has shown us that plenty of people theorize that Bruce Wayne is Batman, but Bruce's playboy act is so convincing, most people think he's too shallow or irresponsible to actually be wearing the outfit. Why should he, when he can afford to hire other guys to put their lives in danger?

Of course, the public doesn't know the real Bruce Wayne.

What bothers me about Lex figuring out Bruce's identity is that it really doesn't matter. Everyone on the planet knows Batman runs with the Waynes, now. Whether he's in the suit or hiring the guy in the suit, it doesn't change any of the dynamics. We see Lex putting all those pictures side by side, like that makes him some sort of genius. Once Bruce admitted he was 'funding' Batman, who on earth wouldn't have already done that?

Besides connecting Bruce to Batman, Lex has no actual evidence that he's under the mask. It doesn't really even matter.

[WonderScott]

Suspension of disbelief and the fun of trying something new.