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  1. #4246
    Astonishing Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Wally & Linda West WAS doing fine until the hard on for Silver Age screwed up DC.
    And what era did Wally West come from?

  2. #4247
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    There are some characters where marriage suits them and some where it don't. All the Flashes seem made to marry. The Dibnys, all the Hawkmen and Hawkwomen, Reed and Sue. I never thought Green Arrow and Black Canary should marry--they are a great couple, but they are iconoclasts and wouldn't marry, just because they like to thumb their nose at convention.

    Other marriages depend on circumstances. Ray and Jean, Arthur and Mera--these seemed like they would make good marriages--but the writers made hell of their lives, so it made sense that those marriages would break up. And you know that Hal would soon wreck a marriage to Carol.

    Batman doesn't seem like a hero who would marry and stay married. And I think Catwoman makes a better adversary than an ally. However, I was ready for them to marry--because it's been done before with Batman. And we're now at a point with DC where every comic is just telling a long extended imaginary story, that is going to end at some point. So if Batman could marry Batwoman and have a family and a career (in Alfred's fan fiction); and if he could marry Catwoman on Earth-Two and have a daughter; then he should be able to marry Catwoman in the current reality, before that falls apart in a few years when the next Crisis happens.

    Also, comparing Superman with Batman--I'd say that Bats has a longer tradition of being a family man. He has fathered many sons and he has familial relationships with other people.

    Even though Superman had extended family--prior to the Byrne reboot, he was established to actually be more of a loner than Batman. He has a Fortress of SOLITUDE in the far north away from all humanity. Batman has a batcave under his house, where Alfred and several Robins hang out--and another batcave under the Wayne Foundation where the Outsiders hang out. Batman was even engaged to marry in the first year of his publication, in 1939, until a new editor decided that he should be with a little boy rather than a woman. Superman would go on long sojourns through the galaxy, mingling with aliens and then launching himself into the void where his only company was his thought balloons.

    And before Crisis, many writers spent a lot of time explaining to us why Superman can't marry or have a family. While Batman takes care of Gotham and has limited goals for cleaning up crime, Superman has a higher quest and he can never set aside the interests of the world or the cosmos to have a contented life. Eventually all the women in his life realized that and stopped pestering him to get married, because they knew that they would always come second. The best they caould do for him was support the Man of Steel in his mission, as his trusted allies (which is what Lois, Lana, Lori and Diana became before the Crisis destroyed that continuity).

    Even prior to Lois and Lana setting aside their pursuit of Superman, the comics gave Superman so many options that it would make no sense to back one relationship over the others. There were many Lana boosters. Lois wasn't to everyone's liking. And there were several other women that caught Superman or Clark's eye--who he even seriously considered marrying.

    Now, I buy into the fact that the current Superman can get married--because he's less of a Superman and more of a Clark. He puts his own personal interests ahead of the interests of humanity or some higher philosophical ideal. And a lot of the writers have handed us stories where we don't need to feel sorry for Superman, because he has a good life.

    But I think that has taken away his edge. In ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, he is that man who sacrifices himself for a greater ideal--but that's the imaginary story. In the current continuity, the unimaginary story is one where Superman gets everything he could want and doesn't have to suffer.

    Unfortunately this probably means that one day a writer will kill Lois and little Jonny, just to give Superman some real pain. But then another Crisis will happen and he will forget his pain, just like when Supergirl died.
    sorry🍁

  3. #4248
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    I'm not talking about "blanket rules" I'm talking about, show me a successful super-hero comic that stars a happily married couple.
    Honestly I struggle to think of hardly any comics, successful or otherwise which have had a happily married main character for any length of time, so there's a lack of evidence either way.

    FWIW though, I do think permanently marrying Batman is a bad idea for that particular character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    And don't be so sure that DC or Marvel won't start printing on newsprint, or that they won't go to a grid layout. How many more price hikes do you think comics readers will swallow? Economic reality has a way of asserting itself sooner or later.
    My point was nothing to do with whether they are good ideas. It was about the flawed logic that "they don't do it, therefore there must be a good reason why they don't do it". That kind of thinking rules out ever doing anything new or different.

  4. #4249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    There are some characters where marriage suits them and some where it don't. All the Flashes seem made to marry. The Dibnys, all the Hawkmen and Hawkwomen, Reed and Sue. I never thought Green Arrow and Black Canary should marry--they are a great couple, but they are iconoclasts and wouldn't marry, just because they like to thumb their nose at convention.

    Other marriages depend on circumstances. Ray and Jean, Arthur and Mera--these seemed like they would make good marriages--but the writers made hell of their lives, so it made sense that those marriages would break up. And you know that Hal would soon wreck a marriage to Carol.

    Batman doesn't seem like a hero who would marry and stay married. And I think Catwoman makes a better adversary than an ally. However, I was ready for them to marry--because it's been done before with Batman. And we're now at a point with DC where every comic is just telling a long extended imaginary story, that is going to end at some point. So if Batman could marry Batwoman and have a family and a career (in Alfred's fan fiction); and if he could marry Catwoman on Earth-Two and have a daughter; then he should be able to marry Catwoman in the current reality, before that falls apart in a few years when the next Crisis happens.

    Also, comparing Superman with Batman--I'd say that Bats has a longer tradition of being a family man. He has fathered many sons and he has familial relationships with other people.

    Even though Superman had extended family--prior to the Byrne reboot, he was established to actually be more of a loner than Batman. He has a Fortress of SOLITUDE in the far north away from all humanity. Batman has a batcave under his house, where Alfred and several Robins hang out--and another batcave under the Wayne Foundation where the Outsiders hang out. Batman was even engaged to marry in the first year of his publication, in 1939, until a new editor decided that he should be with a little boy rather than a woman. Superman would go on long sojourns through the galaxy, mingling with aliens and then launching himself into the void where his only company was his thought balloons.

    And before Crisis, many writers spent a lot of time explaining to us why Superman can't marry or have a family. While Batman takes care of Gotham and has limited goals for cleaning up crime, Superman has a higher quest and he can never set aside the interests of the world or the cosmos to have a contented life. Eventually all the women in his life realized that and stopped pestering him to get married, because they knew that they would always come second. The best they caould do for him was support the Man of Steel in his mission, as his trusted allies (which is what Lois, Lana, Lori and Diana became before the Crisis destroyed that continuity).

    Even prior to Lois and Lana setting aside their pursuit of Superman, the comics gave Superman so many options that it would make no sense to back one relationship over the others. There were many Lana boosters. Lois wasn't to everyone's liking. And there were several other women that caught Superman or Clark's eye--who he even seriously considered marrying.

    Now, I buy into the fact that the current Superman can get married--because he's less of a Superman and more of a Clark. He puts his own personal interests ahead of the interests of humanity or some higher philosophical ideal. And a lot of the writers have handed us stories where we don't need to feel sorry for Superman, because he has a good life.

    But I think that has taken away his edge. In ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, he is that man who sacrifices himself for a greater ideal--but that's the imaginary story. In the current continuity, the unimaginary story is one where Superman gets everything he could want and doesn't have to suffer.

    Unfortunately this probably means that one day a writer will kill Lois and little Jonny, just to give Superman some real pain. But then another Crisis will happen and he will forget his pain, just like when Supergirl died.
    The things comic book fans say...

    Tell me, do you think every doctor, fire fighter, soldier, police officer and civil rights activist that ever got married and started a family was putting their interests above humanity or some other philosophy?

  5. #4250
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    John Stewart being married to Katma works for me.

    Guy Gardner being in a committed relationship with Ice works for me.

    Neither of those two strike me as lady-killers, nor should they ever be so.

    Now, Hal Jordan & Kyle Rayner jumping in & out of relationships makes more sense. They might have a true love (Carol in Hal's case), but something should always prevent them from committing fully.

  6. #4251

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    Mostly, I'm just disappointed that DC didn't have the balls to go through with it. I definitely feel like a sucker for following this story through. When he first proposed, my initial reaction was something like bullsh!t that's not gonna happen. But it kept going and going. The stories were all about Bat & Cat being together. The Robins coming to terms with it. Talia. Super double date. There wasn't really a will-they-won't-they aspect to it. Maybe there was, I just didn't pick up on it. Then they released all those stupid wedding special Joker v Harley nonsense. Made me think they had the balls and I thought it would've been interesting. A married Batman is something we haven't seen in a very long time. It was something different. A sad mopey grump Batman is more familiar territory.

    I'll also say, the whole thing played out like a bad sitcom. I mean, she writes him a dear John letter? What the f--. Completely flawed and outdated logic. The whole thing is the result of Bane's manipulation which makes them both seem like total chumps. Real people getting married talk this sh!t out together and come to peace with it. They don't do this stupid Sam & Diane nonsense. Catwoman up and leaves because of course she's got all the answers even though it's obvious she can't think for herself. She's got to be the martyr because big dumb man too dumb to know any better. She flat out says I'm leaving so you'll be miserable for the rest of your life being Batman, because... I'm a hero and that's what heroes do? I'll give this issue some credit, it's a really good jumping on point for new readers. But also a really good jumping off point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Tell me, do you think every doctor, fire fighter, soldier, police officer and civil rights activist that ever got married and started a family was putting their interests above humanity or some other philosophy?
    And I mean this, definitely agree. Why is a married/happy Batman a bad Batman? And why does this idea of a wedding ceremony suddenly trigger happiness forever after? Marriage is not the same concept that it was in the 1950s. It's not that big of a life changing event and it's definitely not permanent. To a lot of people, it's just a formality. The couple you were before is the couple you are after. You don't suddenly ping happiness and you definitely don't suddenly decide to slack off for the rest of your life because of it.

    Look at the concept of Robin. That's a child wearing a bright red and yellow costume that Batman takes with him to fight murderers and super powered nutjobs using only nonlethal combat moves. That's crazy as hell. But that's been going on forever. The logic I heard once to justify this is Batman has Robin so it would force him to up his game and be more careful. Essentially he's a better Batman when Robin is around. So how is this different with Catwoman? They both do the same thing. If he's happy, why wouldn't he up his game even more because of it? I'd argue he'd be a better Batman in marriage because he knows how quickly happiness can be taken away so he's gonna work his Bat ass off to make sure it doesn't happen. I thought this couple could've been better than the sum of their parts.
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  7. #4252
    Extraordinary Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Honestly I struggle to think of hardly any comics, successful or otherwise which have had a happily married main character for any length of time, so there's a lack of evidence either way.

    FWIW though, I do think permanently marrying Batman is a bad idea for that particular character.

    My point was nothing to do with whether they are good ideas. It was about the flawed logic that "they don't do it, therefore there must be a good reason why they don't do it". That kind of thinking rules out ever doing anything new or different.
    Animal Man is married and has been for a long time. Buddy's marriage has had its rough spots, but they work through their problems.

    Superman spent a decade or more married before the reboot undid it. And the marriage, while having some cringe-y moments, was far from the source of the books' problems in the '00s. And generally I think Clark and Lois were happy together. There were stories that forced drama (usually pointless, foolish, and needless) between them but I don't think those tales were as common as we might remember them (they just stick out because they were so awful).

    Wally was married to Linda for years and for my money was the gold standard for how to write a happy married couple in comics. Granted, when the kids came into the story it didn't work but I suspect that's less about the concept itself and more about the execution of the concept.

    Jay Garrick and Allan Scott have been married forever, and when their spouses show up it's (almost) always depicting a happy married life.

    Marriage isn't a terribly common status in comics, and writers seem to be hung up on the perceived limitations it brings, but it's been done, been done well, and there's no real reason it should be avoided if it fits the character/s.

    Also, trey, if your logic of "no one does it, therefore it must be bad" held true, wouldn't that basically mean that every fan-idea you've had about DC publishing a title is a bad idea? After all, if it was a good idea to do a Charlton team title or a Atom team title or whatever else it is you dream up, DC would've done it already. And since DC hasn't done those books, they must therefore be bad ideas?
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  8. #4253
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngryComicBookNerd View Post
    ...Why is a married/happy Batman a bad Batman? And why does this idea of a wedding ceremony suddenly trigger happiness forever after? Marriage is not the same concept that it was in the 1950s. It's not that big of a life changing event and it's definitely not permanent. To a lot of people, it's just a formality. The couple you were before is the couple you are after. You don't suddenly ping happiness and you definitely don't suddenly decide to slack off for the rest of your life because of it.
    First, let me repeat that I'm not in the marriage is non-viable for adventure characters camp. That said, I view marriage as probably bad for Batman over the long haul. Lonely and brooding is part of his thing, and a lot of his weakest points over the last 79 years (particularly in the 1950s and early 1960s) came when writers and editors watered that down.

    The best way I know to describe it was captured in Year Two, and the feature Mask of the Phantasm. Those stories suggested that if Batman isn't hurting inside, he loses some of the obsessive force that drives him. IMO, it's one of the reasons that writers keep returning to the idea he's a terrible father-figure to his proteges; there's only so close he can let them get.

    So, if one subscribes to that theory of Batman's sense of drive, and the wedding had happened, sooner or later they were going to have to make the marriage unhappy, which might have actually made for a better series of stories.

  9. #4254
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    I remember Batman married Talia in a late '70s comic book. Now I'm not sure Bruce was in his right mind when he married her, but I don't recall them ever getting a divorce. And they do have a kid together (or two?), so I don't know if he can legally marry someone else.

    I didn't buy BATMAN 50, but I've seen reviews of it that detail everything that happens and there seems to be these recurring statements of how Batman always concealed his eyes, but Catwoman didn't. What's that about? The first time they met, she was wearing a big cat's head--he never saw her eyes. Catwoman was just as secretive and dishonest as Bats.

    To me the idea that Bruce is an emotional wreck is one of those new-fangled ideas that we got from the Frank Miller Batman. But the classic Batman was a stoic. And remember, when those old stories were being published, the people had survived a Great Depression and gotten through a World War, where many suffered far more than the rich Bruce Wayne--so it would be callous for Batman to paint himself as a victim and indulge in his own self-pity when others were hurting from great harms. So Bruce was an example of someone who recovered from a trauma by doing good in the world.

    The reader wasn't supposed to feel sorry for Batman. Most kids wanted to be Batman because he had the perfect life. That was what I wanted to be when I grew up. I remember the hours I spent planning my life as a super-hero--the house I would have and the secret HQ beneath it, how I would get a kid to be my sidekick, the adventures we would have.

    Batman and Robin smiled and joked when they were beating up thugs on their nightly rounds--that looked like a whole lot of fun.
    sorry🍁

  10. #4255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    Also, trey, if your logic of "no one does it, therefore it must be bad" held true, wouldn't that basically mean that every fan-idea you've had about DC publishing a title is a bad idea? After all, if it was a good idea to do a Charlton team title or a Atom team title or whatever else it is you dream up, DC would've done it already. And since DC hasn't done those books, they must therefore be bad ideas?
    Married characters HAS been tried. Do you think that of all the many hundreds of television show that have been produced, it hasn't been tried?

    When a married couple star in a television drama, the relationship is light-hearted -- McMillan and Wife, Hart to Hart, The Thin Man, and so on. I don't know of any exceptions to that. Batman is not light-hearted!

    If you want to have a married couple star in a comic book, then do it in a comic that doesn't sell, and try it as a Hail Mary that might turn that property around. Don't screw around with DC's top seller because YOU PERSONALLY are bored with it! The market is not bored with Batman at all. If you're bored with it, then go read something else, while 100k people buy Batman twice a month.

  11. #4256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    Married characters HAS been tried. Do you think that of all the many hundreds of television show that have been produced, it hasn't been tried?

    When a married couple star in a television drama, the relationship is light-hearted -- McMillan and Wife, Hart to Hart, The Thin Man, and so on. I don't know of any exceptions to that. Batman is not light-hearted!

    If you want to have a married couple star in a comic book, then do it in a comic that doesn't sell, and try it as a Hail Mary that might turn that property around. Don't screw around with DC's top seller because YOU PERSONALLY are bored with it! The market is not bored with Batman at all. If you're bored with it, then go read something else, while 100k people buy Batman twice a month.
    All those lighthearted relationships... the wedded bliss of the Sopranos and Breaking Bad... Didn't the relationship in The Ozarks seem like a real treat?
    I'm sure someone who watches more TV than I do could list many more examples.
    "I don't know of any exceptions to that".. I get that you are trying to make a point, but when you say something so obviously false and easily disproved you lose all credibility.

  12. #4257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    All those lighthearted relationships... the wedded bliss of the Sopranos and Breaking Bad... Didn't the relationship in The Ozarks seem like a real treat?
    I'm sure someone who watches more TV than I do could list many more examples.
    "I don't know of any exceptions to that".. I get that you are trying to make a point, but when you say something so obviously false and easily disproved you lose all credibility.
    Isn't that a mini-series? Batman is not a mini-series.

    But I'm tired of arguing this. If any of you guys want Batman to marry Catwoman, then that's great. I hope DC tries it, and anyone who wanted to see that done, both inside the company and out, can own the results.

  13. #4258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trey Strain View Post
    Isn't that a mini-series? Batman is not a mini-series.

    But I'm tired of arguing this. If any of you guys want Batman to marry Catwoman, then that's great. I hope DC tries it, and anyone who wanted to see that done, both inside the company and out, can own the results.
    Isn't what a mini series? I guess it doesn't really matter which one though, really, because a television show is not a comic book, if you want to go that route.

    But you made the comparison and a completely false statement connected to that comparison, which is what I was addressing.

  14. #4259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    And what era did Wally West come from?
    People forget that Wally had a long history before 1986.

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  15. #4260
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I really am just tired of sad sack, depressed, Barry Allen.

    It's always "my mom is dead," or "I can't be happy," or "my sidekicks hate me and I have to keep people at arms-length," or "it's all my fault," or "everyone else is more heroic then I am," or something that makes Barry depressing to follow or just come off bad.

    That is not what The Flash is about.

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