Your DC-Only controversial opinions...

[Jim Kelly]

Diversity is fine for DC, but when they do it, they better be careful about how they do it. Because there's no going back. They can't introduce diversity and then take it back without making themselves look bad.

I think that's why we have two Wally Wests.

Probably even worse would be having the two characters merge into one. That would either mean a black man is stuck in a white man's body or a white man is stuck in a black man's body. Either way, it sends the wrong message.

[AdamFTF]

MISTER MIRACLE is a bit different. Scott Free was meant as a tribute to Jim Steranko. Steranko practiced magic and admired Houdini. This was the most successful of the Fourth World books for Kirby and I think that's because Mister Miracle plays the part of a traditional super-hero. He's even a "legacy" hero in the sense he's filling in for the first Mistrer Miracle, Thaddeus Brown. But it's also a tribute to Kirby's wife Roz and his marriage to her. Big Barda physically was based on Lainie Kazan who had appeared topless in PLAYBOY, but emotionally and every other way she's Roz--which makes Scott Jack. For some reason, when I read Kirby's MISTER MIRACLE, I think of FLASH GORDON movie serials.

There's also a little bit of an Old Testament Biblical riff going on in Mister Miracle. Scott Free's kind of superhero Moses. He's the "deliverer" raised among his people's enemies.

[CRaymond]

Probably even worse would be having the two characters merge into one. That would either mean a black man is stuck in a white man's body or a white man is stuck in a black man's body. Either way, it sends the wrong message.

For WHO exactly is this scenario a problem? "Merging" the two characters in the manner you suggest would not void or discredit the lives of either Wally. He'd be intimately aware of his own context, and the context of his previous existence. It'd be like reincarnation, only of simultaneous lives. And it'd be tough but smart to have a black character who has lived as both black and white, and his superpower is code-switching.

We NEED characters who are aware and dealing with the ramifications of DC's constantly morphing continuity.

[Slaughter]

- Battle-suit criminal mastermind Lex Luthor is both dumb and a bad idea. If you already have power and influence, what the hell is the point of the battle suit? And when your main ability is your humanity and using your brain, the juxtaposition of differences is lost when going up opposite to the alien but most human Superman and his physicality.

I think the whole "Lex Luthor as totally a 'super-hero' " thing actually justifies the battle suit and adds a lot of sense. Lex can go around with a battle suit doing whatever and if they ask him about it, he can just say go blablablabla super-hero business as long as they don't see him doing anything blatantly illegal (like murdering someone).

He could fight Superman on live TV and just say "Oh its ok, Superman was being mind-controlled at the time, we are still deprogramming him, he's safe but sometimes he says he wasn't mind-controlled and I attacked him. It will go away in time" with a straight face and a "benign" smile.

Otherwise, the Battle Suit only makes sense in certain contexts - like in Public Enemies where its a Hail Mary of a Luthor about to be impeached and arrested, or when Luthor used a kryptonian suit to fight Superman after the destruction of Metropolis during the Triangle Era.

[Jim Kelly]

For WHO exactly is this scenario a problem?

Not for me--but I've seen people lose their nut over this kind of thing. In this world of viral outrage over every little thing, I anticipate that kind of reaction. I'm not saying it should happen, I'm just saying it does happen.

[CRaymond]

Not for me--but I've seen people lose their nut over this kind of thing. In this world of viral outrage over every little thing, I anticipate that kind of reaction. I'm not saying it should happen, I'm just saying it does happen.

I completely understand what you're talking about.

Still. Wolverine is a teenage girl. Captain America is a black guy with wings, OR a secret Hydra agent. Thor is woman in chemotherapy. Spider-Man is a half black half Hispanic kid from another dimension. Marvel is taking risks all the way to the bank and DC is rebirthing nostalgia for the millionth time.

I almost want to headfanon Combo Wally as the only character to remember prior context, but completely own and enjoy his current context. Give him a secret identity inside his secret identity.

[Agent Z]

I completely understand what you're talking about.

Still. Wolverine is a teenage girl. Captain America is a black guy with wings, OR a secret Hydra agent. Thor is woman in chemotherapy. Spider-Man is a half black half Hispanic kid from another dimension. Marvel is taking risks all the way to the bank and DC is rebirthing nostalgia for the millionth time.

I almost want to headfanon Combo Wally as the only character to remember prior context, but completely own and enjoy his current context. Give him a secret identity inside his secret identity.

I was actually wondering if Donna Troy would fit this better.

[NeuroticNyx]

Diversity is fine for DC, but when they do it, they better be careful about how they do it. Because there's no going back. They can't introduce diversity and then take it back without making themselves look bad.

I think that's why we have two Wally Wests.

The entire situation could've been avoided if they'd just made a new character instead of race-lifting.

Sure, you can talk about new characters not catching on, but evidently NuWally didn't catch on or they wouldn't have brought the classic one back, so that's no excuse.

[CRaymond]

I was actually wondering if Donna Troy would fit this better.

I'm certain we're going to disagree here, but I don't want Donna, in any incarnation, to be thrown into a story with science fiction themes. She needs to be given more magical, mythical, socially conscious themes to draw her closer to Wonder Woman's corner of the DCU.

[Agent Z]

I'm certain we're going to disagree here, but I don't want Donna, in any incarnation, to be thrown into a story with science fiction themes. She needs to be given more magical, mythical, socially conscious themes to draw her closer to Wonder Woman's corner of the DCU.

Stories about the universe being altered are not solely science fiction.

[The Darknight Detective]

Diversity is fine for DC, but when they do it, they better be careful about how they do it. Because there's no going back. They can't introduce diversity and then take it back without making themselves look bad.

That's exactly my thoughts on this, Jim. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the creation of NuWally, once he was introduced, that should have been the end of it, IMO.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I'm reading Crisis on Infinite Earths for the 2nd time and really paying attention. Its great so far and it's the best defense for having a multiverse. It defeats it's own purpose by being so awesome. I can't believe they got to the end and said, "Whew, finally, less ideas, just what storytellers need."

[Trey Strain]

The entire situation could've been avoided if they'd just made a new character instead of race-lifting.

Sure, you can talk about new characters not catching on, but evidently NuWally didn't catch on or they wouldn't have brought the classic one back, so that's no excuse.

They don'r like to create black or gay characters from scratch because they have no confidence on their ability to get them over with the readers. They want to latch into the popularity and visibility of the original characters.

I'd be embarrassed to do that. I'd insist on creating my own character.

[The Darknight Detective]

I'm reading Crisis on Infinite Earths for the 2nd time and really paying attention. Its great so far and it's the best defense for having a multiverse. It defeats it's own purpose by being so awesome. I can't believe they got to the end and said, "Whew, finally, less ideas, just what storytellers need."

That's because COIE was created to boost sagging DC sales and nothing more.

[Potanical Pardon]

I think the whole "Lex Luthor as totally a 'super-hero' " thing actually justifies the battle suit and adds a lot of sense. Lex can go around with a battle suit doing whatever and if they ask him about it, he can just say go blablablabla super-hero business as long as they don't see him doing anything blatantly illegal (like murdering someone).

He could fight Superman on live TV and just say "Oh its ok, Superman was being mind-controlled at the time, we are still deprogramming him, he's safe but sometimes he says he wasn't mind-controlled and I attacked him. It will go away in time" with a straight face and a "benign" smile.

Otherwise, the Battle Suit only makes sense in certain contexts - like in Public Enemies where its a Hail Mary of a Luthor about to be impeached and arrested, or when Luthor used a kryptonian suit to fight Superman after the destruction of Metropolis during the Triangle Era.

Those were the exact only times I was okay with Battle Suit Luthor. Even when he had his series with Matrix Supergirl and had that Lex armor, I was cool. It's every other place before 1985 and now that bothers me. It's like, why are you even wearing this? I get it if you put it on because of a scenario, but sometimes he's just wearing it for no reason until the story conveniently gives him a reason to be wearing it. I support that the suit exists, that it would be something Luthor would have around, think to build, convert from a Kryptonian Battle Suit, etc. I just think that there's a swagger, boldness and cockiness in Lex being exposed so to speak just wearing a power business suit and being able to use his brain and preparation to fight. It's like, "Hey, come at me, I can beat you like this. I do have a battle-suit, but you're not even worth me putting it on" except for those rare occasions when he is in a "in case of an emergency, break glass" situation.

Those guys are public figures.

I'm fine with Lex Luthor, Bruce Wayne, Elon Musk, Howard Hughes, Trump, etc. because they are public figures. It's when that concept extends to the not-as-public figure billionaires where I'm eyerolling when everyone recognizes knows who they are. Someone mentioned Detroit's Dan Gilbert. That's a great example. People in Ohio and Michigan know who he is, and outside of that, few. Same goes for his bow-tie wearing son. Who knows that detail...just Ohio and Michigan. But in the DCU, it's like "Karen Starr?!!!, the CEO of blah blah!!" "Ted Kord???? of Kord Industries fame!!!" "Harrison Wells!", "Ted Knight!!!", "Alan Scott!!", "Natasha Irons! John Henry's niece, right?!" It's like, give me a break. Everyone probably is exposed to the Dell logo at least once a day somehow/somewhere for the last twenty years, yet I doubt most would bat an eye at seeing or hearing "Michael Dell". The CW shows like Smallville and Arrow are totally guilty of this...everyone knows like the entire family history of the Queens or every billionaire friend of Lex's. No. That doesn't happen. Even Oliver or Bruce and their partying ways...I can stretch and buy that. But really, those two as far as the public knows are their fathers' sons.

Both Trump Jrs. or even W and his wife had their moments where they were doing lines of coke, passed out drunk with Sharpied faces and whatever else and photographed/documented. But who besides me and random people know this or even of their existence before The Apprentice or W even ran for President. No one even really knew George H really had kids unless they were a Texas Rangers fan, lived in Florida or whatever. I'm sure people could have an educated guess that he and Barbara had kids, but you didn't really know of them until their own stuff. Does anyone know the billionaire founder of Adobe? Not really. That his kid was abducted and held for ransom once? Name me an actual oil tycoon in Saudi Arabia. Now tell me about their kids. Yeah, doesn't happen. But it does on a local level to varying degrees. Mark Cuban. He has public figure/exposure, but maybe people know him still/maybe they don't. Anyone know if he's married, self-made, inheritence, kids, ages, whatever? Trump himself, has a matter of public record on how often and frequent his business endeavors have mostly failed. Only some know that he actually inherited not his fortune, but enough from his dad. Enough, that no matter how badly you invested that money, it would grow, which is exactly what happened. He made the equivalent of poor investment decisions that anyone could make, but the nature of those is/was such that just due to time and only time, that wealth would be fine. That's not skill, preparation, talent or anything. Yet your average Joe thinks he's this amazing businessman and that everything with his name on it is actually his.

That's my main point with the DC rich people...everyone shouldn't really know as much as they do or recognize many of these people and those close to them. When celebrity is involved, I can usually stretch and buy that like in a $1billion Nike contract with Lebron way. But then there's also the time factor. Grace Kelly. Who knows that she married into royalty? Ridiculously loaded. Killed in a horrific car crash. No, what lasted in pop-culture is "Grace Kelly, Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers...dance on air". She was HUGE in her time. Forgotten. Both Kim Jong's. All anyone really knows is they want the world to think they're batshit crazy, but can rando person on the street even describe either distinctly or can they even say which one is the dad and which one is the son. It's a Bill Paxton/Bill Pullman phenomena thing. Bruce and Lex are pretty much the only ones in the DCU to give a pass to. Everyone else should at the very least suffer through celebrity phases where it depends on the point in time - like even Michael Holt and his New 52 social media incarnation. It's the depth of details that all the random bystanders or even named characters seem to have unnaturally comprehensive knowledge of that's weird.

It bothers me equally as much when it's the "Oh, Lois Lane?" or "That's THE Clark Kent!" People in the real world and people in fiction aren't and shouldn't be that hyperaware of the world around them (I mean, yeah, that'd be great if they were, but I digress), I don't care how many Pulitzers they have. Random person, name me 10 Pulitzer prize winners in the last 50 years, shit, in the history of the award's existence. Nope most can't do it. People usually can't even remember Oscar winners from just a few years back. They can pick out one or two and the only reason for that isn't the award, it's their faces still being relevant and used for whatever reason. Can't name the last five Best Pictures or Directors off the top of their head, that's for sure. Some people sure can, but not ubiquitously known. There could be Sars, Ebola, or the Zika virus of the moment going on and most people will be like "that's the one where blah, blah, blah, right?" I would gamble that 99% of the planet still doesn't know what ALS is after that ice bucket nonsense.

It's worth reading Kirby's NEW GODS and FOREVER PEOPLE in the context of the times. They both metaphorically related to what was going on at that time. NEW GODS is about the Vietnam War. Planet Earth is Vietnam, the New Gods are the Americans, the Apokokips crowd are the Commies (Red China and the USSR). FOREVER PEOPLE is about the young generation that resisted the war and dropped out--the Hippy people and flower children. A lot of them were hanging out in California at places like Big Bear.

Granted there's a lot else going on in those books, but those are main themes for them. In addition, you've got Kirby mashing up a lot of stuff from pop culture. It's an acquired taste--took me years to get into what he was doing--but it's awfully cool how he took all of this cultural iconography from different sources and mixed it together the way he did. Actually ahead of his time for doing that.

Of course, being from the WW II generation, Kirby had a better understanding of the older generation psychology--represented by his doppelganger, Brookyn aka Terrible Dan Turpin. But he had assistance from Mark Evanier and Steve Sherman who could tell him what the young people were thinking.

MISTER MIRACLE is a bit different. Scott Free was meant as a tribute to Jim Steranko. Steranko practiced magic and admired Houdini. This was the most successful of the Fourth World books for Kirby and I think that's because Mister Miracle plays the part of a traditional super-hero. He's even a "legacy" hero in the sense he's filling in for the first Mistrer Miracle, Thaddeus Brown. But it's also a tribute to Kirby's wife Roz and his marriage to her. Big Barda physically was based on Lainie Kazan who had appeared topless in PLAYBOY, but emotionally and every other way she's Roz--which makes Scott Jack. For some reason, when I read Kirby's MISTER MIRACLE, I think of FLASH GORDON movie serials.

Thank you for this response. I will give it another shot, just because of this. This will be attempt number probably 15, though. I'm genuinely going to try, but we shall see! It is possible, though. I couldn't get into Star Trek anything at all until a year ago. Closest scenario that I have of a similar number of attempts to get into. It finally clicked for me and made me a fan especially of the original series. I still can't get into any of the other series, though. At all.