Your DC-Only controversial opinions...

[TheCape]

I always thougth that it was just a case of the nostalgia cycle, in the early 2000s, they missed some Silver Age elements and characthers.

With Rebirth thougth, i thougth that they were feeling nostalgia from the 90s or early Post-Crisis and tried to bring some of that back too.

[Robanker]

Wonder Woman never had any notable love interest other than Steve. Its not like 90's era fans treated Trevor Barnes or Tressor with reverence to begin with.

She's had a multitude of problems for a while now that have impacted her sales, one of which is her status quo is a bit harder to pin down than other characters and DC simply would not stick to a take. Post-Crisis, who was her love interest? What was her career? Does she even have one? Who were her immediate supporting cast? Post-Flashpoint, she's with Superman and maybe was with Steve? Now she's with Steve, not Superman. Before there was nothing stopping her from visiting home, now there are rules against that. Once she was clay, then a demigoddess, etc. Is she as strong as Superman? Weaker but a superior fighter? Bulletproof? Notsomuch? Peaceful? Warlike? Did she ever have the invisible jet? Are the Amazons peaceful? Prepared for war, but adverse to it? Are they savage misandrists (please no)? Diana changes from writer to writer, run to run seemingly more than other characters.

DC seemed to mostly just care about someone willing to be on the book, hit a certain number of sales, and not much else. I'm sure this isn't true at all, but it FELT that way pre-Flashpoint (mind you, I enjoyed a few runs on her during that time). Hell, when JMS came onboard as her writer before Flashpoint, I remember him mentioning she's their best Superman analogue and that excited him.

...There has always been the same question from folks in the audience: "Is there any one character who is your dream character to write for?" The answer has always been the same: Superman. When I first came over to DC, that dream was realized in part by Dan DiDio's gracious invitation to write the first of potentially many Superman original graphic novels. Now the dream has come fully true with the opportunity to write for the mainstream title, in a story that returns Superman to his roots in a way that will have the whole country talking about him in ways that we haven't seen in a long time. Similarly, the chance to write Wonder Woman -- the nearest analogue to Superman in the DCU -- is massively exciting. She's a vital, powerful character, and we hope to bring a more contemporary sensibility to her character will retaining everything that makes her unique. That DC is willing to jump-start these two runs in the pages of their respective anniversary issues is a great opportunity and a vote of confidence in what we have planned for these characters. I'm looking forward to this with more excitement than words can convey. It's gonna be a blast."

I mean, I know he was high profile and that brings people onboard, but if the way your writer describes one of your premier characters comes down to "girl Superman," I'm worried. Doesn't sound like a cornerstone of your universe or brand.

I'm really hoping the movie and Rebirth initiative can try to lock things down for a while so that she can really get a real foothold on some of the things we take for granted with the other members of the Trinity.



For that matter, DC needs to stop pairing her with Superman or Batman. They have established love interests they will ALWAYS return to (Lois, Selina or Talia) because those characters are tailor made to compliment them and have decades of history to go for it. She will only ever be a footnote in their history and that wastes a lot of time she needs fleshing out her own part of the world. It essentially puts Diana on hold creatively for something that simply can't work the next time Bruce or Clark have a movie coming out. If Steve doesn't pan out and they want to try someone else, or he does, that's infinitely superior to her essentially being arm candy for her friends. It's degrading to her as a character and damages the IP overall.

I'm sure I'll get picked apart by passionate Wonder Woman fans (who have a better handle on her history than I) for typing all that. Nevertheless, for such an iconic character, prior to her film's release, DC seemed to only agree she sure sold underwear and promise that "no really, she's a pillar of our line" which is a complete shame.

tl;dr

DC needs to commit to a direction for Wonder Woman and flesh her out in a way that sticks. She's not DC's biggest example of a character with this kind of creative clusterbomb (I'd say Hawkman is still playing Origin Pong every so often), but she's definitely their most significant with it.

[The Darknight Detective]

I always thougth that it was just a case of the nostalgia cycle, in the early 2000s, they missed some Silver Age elements and characthers.

With Rebirth thougth, i thougth that they were feeling nostalgia from the 90s or early Post-Crisis and tried to bring some of that back too.

No, nostalgic reasons for bringing anything back are only for characters or events you didn't want back, not for things that should never, ever have been replaced or changed in the first place!

[Jim Kelly]

There’s no way you can convince me that DC is out to revive the so called “Silver Age” for the sake of satisfying the nostalgia of old school readers. That would mean I and those older than I (many of whom have expired) are the key demographic. And I know that’s not true—the bulk of readers are much younger and could not possibly have memory of these comics when they came out.

And it’s only a handful of characters at best that were revived. If I’m really the key demographic, then where are all the characters I loved back in the day? If this is feeding my nostalgia then it’s a starvation diet.

As for the writing and the art, it ain’t anything like the stuff in the 1960s and 1970s. Only someone who was born after those decades would mistake this for that.

[TheCape]

I don't think that it was to please old readers, i just think that they missed some of those things and wanted then back in a more modern setting, but i agreed that they shouldn't have get rid of those pre-crisis elements in the first place, it just generate more problems.

[SiegePerilous02]

Gee let's see now:

• Hal Jordan has returned as the main Green Lantern
  
  Barbara Gordon is Batgirl again
  
  Barry Allen is the Flash again while Wally's wife and kids are still in limbo
  
  Wonder Woman and Dteve Trevor are in a relationship again
  

How does it not hold up?

It doesn't hold up because you only provided four examples and none of them are exactly the same as They were written back then. And Hal and Babs held onto their mantles into the 90s (Babs through BTAS and all related media), so they are not Bronze Age only characters. By now, I think Hal has even been back longer than he's been gone.

Diana Steve are in a relationship, but cmon. There is way more stuff in the title now that you didn t see in the Silver age. The Zeus origin being chief among them, Barbara Minerva as the Cheetah, Post Crisis Amazons, Veronica Cale, Dr. Cyber as an AI. Steve in no way negates any of this, and it's not like he ever had a popular replacement.

No, nostalgic reasons for bringing anything back are only for characters or events you didn't want back, not for things that should never, ever have been replaced or changed in the first place!

There’s no way you can convince me that DC is out to revive the so called “Silver Age” for the sake of satisfying the nostalgia of old school readers. That would mean I and those older than I (many of whom have expired) are the key demographic. And I know that’s not true—the bulk of readers are much younger and could not possibly have memory of these comics when they came out.

And it’s only a handful of characters at best that were revived. If I’m really the key demographic, then where are all the characters I loved back in the day? If this is feeding my nostalgia then it’s a starvation diet.

As for the writing and the art, it ain’t anything like the stuff in the 1960s and 1970s. Only someone who was born after those decades would mistake this for that.

Agreed.

[The Darknight Detective]

There’s no way you can convince me that DC is out to revive the so called “Silver Age” for the sake of satisfying the nostalgia of old school readers. That would mean I and those older than I (many of whom have expired) are the key demographic. And I know that’s not true—the bulk of readers are much younger and could not possibly have memory of these comics when they came out.

And it’s only a handful of characters at best that were revived. If I’m really the key demographic, then where are all the characters I loved back in the day? If this is feeding my nostalgia then it’s a starvation diet.

As for the writing and the art, it ain’t anything like the stuff in the 1960s and 1970s. Only someone who was born after those decades would mistake this for that.

I think when people talk about bringing things back for nostalgic reasons, they're referring to management's nostalgia, not the fanbase itself. I don't agree with this, BTW. It's certainly not close to being the primary reason, at any rate.

[TheCape]

I don't know if this is controversial, but like i don't blame characthers for whatever that falls over another in the same franchise most of the time. Like, i'm a fan of the YJ4 generation and i think that DC has treated then like **** since Johns TT, but i don't had any resentment toward Jon or Damian. Or that Wally West is my favorite Flash, but i don't blame Barry for what happened to him.

Botton line i might dislike some characthers or i'm not a big fan of then, but i think that hating on one is petty and silly (and that goes for both sides). I would criticize the writters and editors for their bad decisions and all that, but that's as far as i go. Well, unless than that characther is Daken .

[Agent Z]

Hal was GL all the way up to almost the mid 90's. He was only gone for a decade. Besides the manner in which he and the GL mythos were treated when Kyle arrived was bound to be reversed.

There was no Batgirl throughout the 90's. With Barbara DC has been trying to bring her back since the late 90's. Those plans just never materialized but its not really black and white.

Ok thats true.

Wonder Woman never had any notable love interest other than Steve. Its not like 90's era fans treated Trevor Barnes or Tressor with reverence to begin with.

I fail to see how any of this negates my point. DC has never let the fact they have a succesful replacement stop them from bringing back an SA character.

It is pretty black and white, DC kept trying to bring back Babs as Batgirl and got rid of Cass first chance they got.


It didn't matter if no one liked Tressor or Barnes, they'd be replaced just because they weren't Steve.
And in the case of Trevor Barnes, he was disliked for no other reason than he wasn't Steve and more than a few jerks not liking Diana being paired with a black guy.

[Agent Z]

It doesn't hold up because you only provided four examples and none of them are exactly the same as They were written back then.

No character is written exactly as they were when they debuted. In this case, I am talking about the characters being used and pushed above all else rather than whatever changes are made.

And Hal and Babs held onto their mantles into the 90s (Babs through BTAS and all related media), so they are not Bronze Age only characters. By now, I think Hal has even been back longer than he's been gone.

Bronze Age?

Diana Steve are in a relationship, but cmon. There is way more stuff in the title now that you didn t see in the Silver age. The Zeus origin being chief among them, Barbara Minerva as the Cheetah, Post Crisis Amazons, Veronica Cale, Dr. Cyber as an AI. Steve in no way negates any of this, and it's not like he ever had a popular replacement.

We also have none of Diana’s cast from post crisis save for Vanessa (who’s return has been received not so great), her being an ambassador is gone and it isn’t even like Barbara and Cale are written the same way either. Zara, Blue Snowman and Angle Man are even back.

[Jim Kelly]

I think when people talk about bringing things back for nostalgic reasons, they're referring to management's nostalgia, not the fanbase itself. I don't agree with this, BTW. It's certainly not close to being the primary reason, at any rate.

Even if that were the case, they would still need to appeal to enough readers for those decisions to gain support. And that doesn’t make sense for the reasons I gave.

As well, Paul Levitz is from the same generation as Dan DiDio and yet presided over a period when many mid-generation characters (as I’ll call them) fell on hard times. So there’s an even split between the guys from my block who favoured the mid-gen and them that didn’t.

Geoff Johns was born too late to have the same nostalgia. And I even doubt Jim Lee was a big fan of the 1960s comics, which he’d hardly remember unless he was a child savant.

[SiegePerilous02]

I fail to see how any of this negates my point. DC has never let the fact they have a succesful replacement stop them from bringing back an SA character.

It is pretty black and white, DC kept trying to bring back Babs as Batgirl and got rid of Cass first chance they got.

When they got rid of Cass, they didn't go for Barbara as Batgirl right away. Steph was Cass's immediate replacement.

With Babs back as Batgirl, she hardly resembles her Bronze Age self, and they still teamed her up with Black Canary and Huntress in a BOP book. Which again, wasn't a thing in the old comics. And while Cass and Steph got left out of the majority of the New 52 era, they were still brought back eventually. The BatVerse doesn't resemble pre-Crisis that much, or else the massive Bat-Family wouldn't be a thing.

It didn't matter if no one liked Tressor or Barnes, they'd be replaced just because they weren't Steve.
And in the case of Trevor Barnes, he was disliked for no other reason than he wasn't Steve and more than a few jerks not liking Diana being paired with a black guy.

We can't know that for sure. We live in an actual reality where those characters didn't take off for several reasons, not all of which were that they weren't Steve. Many parts of the fanbase were sick of seeing Diana paired up with men instead of embracing the character's bisexuality, so Steve wouldn't satisfy that part of the fanbase either. And it's not as if Steve was rushed back into the role once the romance with Barnes ended.

[SiegePerilous02]

No character is written exactly as they were when they debuted. In this case, I am talking about the characters being used and pushed above all else rather than whatever changes are made.

That doesn't mean the DC universe suddenly resembles itself from pre-Crisis comics. The mere presence of a few characters above others (which we have seen doesn't even last permanently, as they've brought back Wally and are doing Flash War, kept all four Earth Lanterns and added two more, brought Cass and Steph back in some capacity, etc). doesn't change the fact that a whole bunch of stuff is being published that didn't exist in the old comics.

The 90s was a period where not all characters were present. Why should this one be any different?

Bronze Age?

Yes...? The Silver and Bronze age generally overlap for DC according to most fans. Bronze Age was basically the Silver Age status quos with maturing writing. And Babs and Hal were part of both eras, and made it into others. So nobody (in general) should claim they are Green Lantern and Batgirl of a certain era only

We also have none of Diana’s cast from post crisis save for Vanessa (who’s return has been received not so great), her being an ambassador is gone and it isn’t even like Barbara and Cale are written the same way either. Zara, Blue Snowman and Angle Man are even back.

- True for Vanessa's treatment, but you forget Ferdinand and Io.
- Diana is not an ambassador, but she's not Diana Prince either
- Barbara and Cale are written differently, but it's a moot point as they are still not pre-Crisis characters. Priscilla Rich and Deborah Domaine are not around, Barbara is. And Cale didn't exist back then to have a connection to (the wildly different) Dr. Cyber or any of the Cheetahs.
- Ares is trapped on Themyscira, not a status quo any version of him has had in the comics
- Zara and Blue Snowman have so far made only wordless cameos. I'd love for them to be used more, but they are too incidental now to count
- Angle Man isn't around, but Anglette is
- Steve wasn't accompanied by the Oddfellows in the Silver Age.

[SiegePerilous02]

*Double post

[Assam]

When they got rid of Cass, they didn't go for Barbara as Batgirl right away. Steph was Cass's immediate replacement..

Staying out of this discussion mostly because it only ever goes in circles, but you should know that DC, or at least DiDio, did want Barbara back in the Batgirl suit right away. It was only pressure from fans and creators that lead him to decide to have Charlie be the new Batgirl instead, and then a letter from Simone saying why that wasn't a good idea that lead to Steph getting the mantle.