The LGBTQIA-community

[Tangent Man]

Well this turned into a monument of how necessary "A" inclusion or in the very least eduction is in LGBT pretty quickly, and how important asexual visibility is.

Maybe that purpose would be better served in its own thread?

The inclusion of "T" doesn't mean it conflates with other orientations. The history of the terms LGB, and LGBT, was about building and accurately representing a community of people who share or support each other dealing with sexuality and gender identity issues.

Yes, there's shared history, an important piece missing when an alleged "Asexual" community tries to piggyback onto a historic movement.

This is why asexual visibility is so important. Someone who cannot accept the concept of asexuality apart from their own experiences making tenuous claims about our struggles, and using "external" struggle to determine legitimacy. Internal struggle is still struggle, especially when it's coupled with or influences mental illness... which can be physical. And I'd call 'corrective' rape external struggle. Or negativity from religious communities ("you owe your partner sex").
Further, LGBT rights and visibility isn't only or all about sex, whether A or T is included or not. I was under the impression love, relationships, social dynamics, etc. were also applied.

No, it's not all about sex. However, speaking of sex, celibacy has been upheld as a higher moral, spiritual standard by many different religions around the world. Asexuality might be misunderstood, even ridiculed, but I'd argue with nowhere near the same vehemence as targets gay, bi, or Trans people. I'm hearing people try to frame Asexual experience in similar terms as LGBT, so, yes, I'll challenge that line of argument by pointing out exactly why that might constitute a shaky comparison.

You won't be shunned by your family because you want a platonic romance with a woman (hypothetical "you").
You won't lose your job because some right-wing ******* thinks you're "sinful", "perverse", or even just "icky".
Churches don't go out of their way to proselytize, pulpit-bash, or influence legislation against you. In fact, they'd likely high-five you!
Unless you're perceived as gay or lesbian, bashers aren't targeting you in the streets, either.
Politicians aren't trying to legislate 2nd class citizenship for you.

Internal struggle pits you against yourself for survival. If you want to politicize asexuality and stake a claim in the LGBT community, then, yes, expect people to point out the tenuousness of comparing those experiences. Personal angst is not the same as centuries of multidimensional oppression.

That's right. There is plenty of transphobia, sexism, racism in the queer community and I don't believe most people tolerate it. I don't, as well as asexual ignorance/dismissal/hate.

I thinking comparing the very real struggles of people targeted in your first sentence with the latter trivializes their experience.

These analysts and especially 'shrinks' treat asexual people as merely having sexual dysfunction or other mental illness that the patient does not actually have to be treated for. This is an institution that treats asexual people adverse to how they actually identify, think or behave.

The Trans community fought that battle for decades. I think we're only seeing a real breakthrough in the past decade in the Psychiatric industry's dealing with Transgender concerns.

[Max Aero]

Maybe that purpose would be better served in its own thread?

Why can't it happen in a thread with "A" included in the acronym - where people are objectively ignorant about the subject. If you want to make a LGBT thread to specifically exclude asexual people, go ahead.
I mean I will eventually leave because I'm really near the point I wouldn't want to be here as bi, or even an ally. But it was worth pointing out. Also that I'm positive you know that thread would be empty, but at least it wouldn't be near you.

Yes, there's shared history, an important piece missing when an alleged "Asexual" community tries to piggyback onto a historic movement.

This is getting really gross. Just because you're not part of it, don't want to be, can't see it or whatever other reason, doesn't mean it's tenuous or doesn't exist.
LGBT+ isn't a term simply for a historic movement. It's for the community, an evolving one, of people who share or support each other dealing with sexuality and gender identity issues. Of which asexual people have been a part of, invisibly in varying degrees, before AVEN came around.

celibacy has been upheld as a higher moral, spiritual standard by many different religions around the world.

celibacy =/= asexuality

Asexuality might be misunderstood, even ridiculed, but I'd argue with nowhere near the same vehemence as targets gay, bi, or Trans people.

Might be? Your posts are glaring examples of it being so. And that's not the measurement of legitimacy to be included in the acronym, it wasn't for Trans or Pan people.

I'm hearing people try to frame Asexual experience in similar terms as LGBT, so, yes, I'll challenge that line of argument by pointing out exactly why that might constitute a shaky comparison.

I don't know what you've heard. If you're referring to a few examples I gave (corrective rape, religious & psychiatric discrimination) it wasn't to make a comparison. It was to present struggles that are real and exist for asexual people whether you believe it or not.
Every one of your examples are simply guesses. You don't know much about asexuality itself, how can you expect to put faith in "they'd likely high-five you" (they wouldn't and do not). You have no idea what you're talking about.

Personal angst is not the same as centuries of multidimensional oppression.

I dunno if personal angst is meant to trivialize just asexuality here, or mental illness in general.

I thinking comparing the very real struggles of people targeted in your first sentence with the latter trivializes their experience.

I wasn't comparing their struggles (I'll remind you again asexual people face "very real struggles") I was talking about negative attitudes that exist in LGBT towards these groups. The point being made isn't "which ones are worse" but that they do exist. Some good examples in this thread.

The Trans community fought that battle for decades. I think we're only seeing a real breakthrough in the past decade in the Psychiatric industry's dealing with Transgender concerns.

Thanks I know that already. You're only telling me this because you're trying to erase what asexual people experience in psychiatry with some one-upping.

[whitewolf]

Whitewolf checking in. I didn't even know this thread existed on the old forums. For those who are curious I'm mostly gay, but I do sometimes like women so bi technically I guess. So a few pages back we briefly mentioned gay characters in Marvel movies and I have to say it better happen soon because I need my Young Avengers movie or a TV show, but give me one!

[t hedge coke]

I haven't ever met anyone who identifies as intersex, but I have met a number of ace folks who feel routinely rejected from LGBT communities and would like not to be, especially as they sometimes also identify as panromantic, homoomantic, or even aromantic. i.e. even farther from heterosexual than some L/G/B/Q folks are. I know from being queer (some might interpret as bi?) that that feeling blows and I don't really want to wish it on anyone else. Our struggles are separate and not the same, but it is related to consensually appropriate non-normative sexual behavior/gender identity, and they should feel safe in LGBT spaces too, yeah?

Intersex isn't so much an identity as it boils down to physical and hormonal issues without any psychological element. It's closer to being born with a bad heart or unusual number of fingers. That said, it's nice to see the I in there.

[Tangent Man]

Sorry, Max, but whether Asexuality IS even a sexual orientation is and remains a controversial topic. Experts disagree on the question. Presenting it as resolved and absolute fact does as much a disservice, IMO, as the so-called "ignorance" you've complained about.

[Max Aero]

Sorry, Max, but whether Asexuality IS even a sexual orientation is and remains a controversial topic. Experts disagree on the question. Presenting it as resolved and absolute fact does as much a disservice, IMO, as the so-called "ignorance" you've complained about.

Experts on Asexuality, you know that many? The disagreement is from people who are objectively ignorant - who put Asexuality in scare quotes.

[Flamebird]

Sorry, Max, but whether Asexuality IS even a sexual orientation is and remains a controversial topic. Experts disagree on the question. Presenting it as resolved and absolute fact does as much a disservice, IMO, as the so-called "ignorance" you've complained about.

It wasn't that long ago that gays were just "sick people" that should be kept away from children til they were "cured".
Bi-Sexuals were just indiscriminate bed-hoppers.
And Lesbians just needed a "good man" to "fix" them.
Screw that.
I do admit I'm tired if the alphabet soup of LGBTIA, I always wanna add "M-O-U-S-E".

[Kieran_Frost]

Has anyone here been to pride? I have never been to one of those. I got to a lot of smaller LQBT events, but never pride.

I've never been to Pride... and only ever been to one gay bar (fell asleep in it; was so tired)

Speaking of Pride, what are your festivities like in your cities? Here in Savannah, we eschewed the parade in favor of a festival zone.

No idea, I'm afraid. I'm sure Bristol has one (we have lots of gay bars and clubs)

Also, a quick Spider-Man poll: which girlfriend do you prefer, Gwen or Mary-Jane? No, you can't say "Felicia", since we all know she's fabulous!

Gwen Stacey all the way, MJ is rubbish!

For them it has everything to do with marketability and branding. An openly gay actor won't have the same pull on an audience as a closeted actor. How many openly gay actors are there out there? How many of them are leading roles? How many of them saw their career lose steam after coming out?

Very, very few. In terms of "major" openly gay actors, we have Ian McKellan, Zachary Quintos, Jodie Foster, Ellen Page and Neil Patrick Harris... after that you're into Derek Jacobi, Jonathan Groff, Russell Tovey, Jesse Tyler Ferguson (but, outside of film/tv buffs, most won't know who they are).

Only two openly LGBT actors have ever won Oscars while being out (Angelina Jolie and Sir John Gielgud)

How many people lie to themselves and everyone else about their sexuality, in order to make themselves feel better?

I can't be the only one.

I've been out since I was 14 in school; though I did start off as "bi" (not that made any difference, to my peers bi = gay in terms of man/man feelings).

[Charmed]

Has anyone here been to pride? I have never been to one of those. I got to a lot of smaller LQBT events, but never pride.

I've never been to one. Though, living near Miami, it's not like I couldn't go.
I'm hoping to eventually go to one. Just to get a feel for the vibe.

[pro]

It is really difficult to try and explain bisexuality to certain others.

Last 3 women I've liked were bi. Before that I had a big crush on a straight guy that went nowhere for obvious reasons.
It's nice to be able to talk to them about attractions without worrying about perception because they know exactly what it's like.
I think I prefer bi-people as potential partners over others because there is no need for explanations or insecurities.
They like me, I like them, we both know the attraction has little to do with gender. It's a non-issue.

[Greg]

My bf is also bisexual and it was a godsend also. Finally someone I can be in sync with on that front though we did go through a point where he felt I'd be happier with a woman. It didn't help that I also had close family members saying they saw me getting tired of him and going back to girls for something more serious and him as more a side thing for play.

[Kieran_Frost]

Well this was unexpected... Also, since when does including gay characters "by default" make it social commentary???

Nintendo says 'NO' to gay game characters
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27321200

Nintendo has said it will not allow gamers to play as gay characters in its life-simulation game Tomodachi Life. A fan had launched a social media campaign urging Nintendo to allow same-sex relationships between characters in the game - modelled after real people. Nintendo said it "never intended to make any form of social commentary" with the launch of the game.

Tomodachi Life has been a big hit in Japan and the firm is set to launch the game in the US and Europe in June. "The relationship options in the game represent a playful alternate world rather than a real-life simulation," Nintendo of America Inc, said in a statement. "We hope that all of our fans will see that Tomodachi Life was intended to be a whimsical and quirky game, and that we were absolutely not trying to provide social commentary."
[MORE IN LINK]

[galaxygnome]

Intersex isn't so much an identity as it boils down to physical and hormonal issues without any psychological element. It's closer to being born with a bad heart or unusual number of fingers. That said, it's nice to see the I in there.

I get that - I guess I see it as an identity not as a self-identified one, but rather something you're born with & short of medical things can't change - e.g. man/woman (not to be confused with masculine/feminine), race, etc. Not an identity the way we talk about orientation, but still a social identity, yeah? Particularly as this is a deeply misunderstood and stereotyped identity.

Sorry, Max, but whether Asexuality IS even a sexual orientation is and remains a controversial topic. Experts disagree on the question. Presenting it as resolved and absolute fact does as much a disservice, IMO, as the so-called "ignorance" you've complained about.

The amount of gross hate towards asexuality in this thread is unbelievable. I'm not ace, but this makes me not want to have any part of this "community" thread. It reminds me of being queer and lesbian/gay folk (like my dad!) telling me that bisexuality isn't real and i must be fooling myself/confused/experimenting. You know what experts also disagreed on for a long time? whether homosexuality was a mental illness. There are all sorts of resources out there on the things ace people go through that others don't, including in the queer community. It is absolutely and ostracized and diminished identity, called out as "freaks" by others like potential partners, families, etc.

Your earlier argument that people who stayed celibate (i.e. a choice, not an identity) were more respected makes no sense. There were also known secrets of highly respected clergy and younger boy counterparts, while homosexuality was not considered acceptable. it reminds me of people who say that bi people in hetero-looking relationships don't have **** to deal with too.

[Sprite]

Well this was unexpected... Also, since when does including gay characters "by default" make it social commentary???

Nintendo says 'NO' to gay game characters
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27321200

Nintendo has said it will not allow gamers to play as gay characters in its life-simulation game Tomodachi Life. A fan had launched a social media campaign urging Nintendo to allow same-sex relationships between characters in the game - modelled after real people. Nintendo said it "never intended to make any form of social commentary" with the launch of the game.

Tomodachi Life has been a big hit in Japan and the firm is set to launch the game in the US and Europe in June. "The relationship options in the game represent a playful alternate world rather than a real-life simulation," Nintendo of America Inc, said in a statement. "We hope that all of our fans will see that Tomodachi Life was intended to be a whimsical and quirky game, and that we were absolutely not trying to provide social commentary."
[MORE IN LINK]

This is not going to end well for Nintendo.

The amount of gross hate towards asexuality in this thread is unbelievable. I'm not ace, but this makes me not want to have any part of this "community" thread. It reminds me of being queer and lesbian/gay folk (like my dad!) telling me that bisexuality isn't real and i must be fooling myself/confused/experimenting. You know what experts also disagreed on for a long time? whether homosexuality was a mental illness. There are all sorts of resources out there on the things ace people go through that others don't, including in the queer community. It is absolutely and ostracized and diminished identity, called out as "freaks" by others like potential partners, families, etc.

Your earlier argument that people who stayed celibate (i.e. a choice, not an identity) were more respected makes no sense. There were also known secrets of highly respected clergy and younger boy counterparts, while homosexuality was not considered acceptable. it reminds me of people who say that bi people in hetero-looking relationships don't have **** to deal with too. I just don't know why as a person that experience hate and exclusion for others someone who identifies as LGBTQI+ would be so interested in throwing out the A.

I've gotten a lot of red flags from this apparent debate. People who identify as asexual deserve to be treated with care and respect, just like the rest of us do.

[Tangent Man]

I never said they don't deserve respect. I questioned adding Intersex & Asexual to a Queer thread title. Do both groups collectively identify as Queer? Apparently, Aces do? Does being an orientation qualify as "Queer"? If Asexuality encompasses ALL dimensions of emotional attraction--het, bi, homo, pan, etc.--doesn't it effectively move beyond gender identity or sexual orientation? Isn't it another phenomenon altogether?

Asking a tough question might be politically incorrect, but I'm far from a hate-monger, and resent being slandered as such. I feel stronger emotions about that, than about Aces. In fact, my feelings about asexuals are pretty dispassionate.