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  1. #6631
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    P.S. but gosh darn it I hate that Q word, and really wish people didn't use such an offensive homophobic word so casually. It's REALLY offensive to some LGBT+ posters
    .
    when their are TV Shows 'Queer Eye..." "Queen as Folk" college classes "#Queen Theory" and part of the description homosexual's "GenderQueer" It's time to get some thick skin and accept that word has changed and ask yourself what exactly about the word offends you so. The few people I've encountered that have ever been offended by that word were young white gays who (from my limited perspective) to be holding on to the offensivenessof that word so they could have their own 'N-word' which I only abreviated to not get banned. I have no problem with anyone saying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post

    HA! Ohhhh snap!
    I take it that you agree?

  2. #6632
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.k.i.d. View Post
    .
    when their are TV Shows 'Queer Eye..." "Queen as Folk" college classes "#Queen Theory" and part of the description homosexual's "GenderQueer" It's time to get some thick skin and accept that word has changed and ask yourself what exactly about the word offends you so. The few people I've encountered that have ever been offended by that word were young white gays who (from my limited perspective) to be holding on to the offensivenessof that word so they could have their own 'N-word' which I only abreviated to not get banned. I have no problem with anyone saying it.

    I take it that you agree?
    I usually also like to remind people of "We're here, we're Queer, we're used to it."
    The battle cry of the generations that started it all for us.

  3. #6633
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    In case anybody is interested, I am posting some LGBTQ* anthems on the R&B thread.


    *haven't found any I or A songs in the R&B genre yet.

  4. #6634
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanvaljean View Post
    In case anybody is interested, I am posting some LGBTQ* anthems on the R&B thread.


    *haven't found any I or A songs in the R&B genre yet.
    George Michael? ,

  5. #6635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    All LGBT+ voices matter to some degree (even the terrible ones like Milo) and always spouting the same thing would be dull, and I get not finding Pride always inclusive. It's not, and while by-and-large they do a good job, it's still very much the whim of those organizing it, who allow their personal views to dictate far too much (BUT for 90% of those at Pride, we don't see that, so it's not a deal breaker). And I think that's sound advice to JDogindy about feeling "more an enemy than is true", we all do that, think others' find issues much bigger than they are.

    P.S. but gosh darn it I hate that Q word, and really wish people didn't use such an offensive homophobic word so casually. It's REALLY offensive to some LGBT+ posters.
    thanx for offering your perspective on this. firstly, i'm sorry i offended you with the word i use. its just how i describe myself, but obviously i shouldn't describe anybody & everybody that way. specifically if, like you say, they don't want to identify as such. just to offer my perspective - i was born in the '90s, & there was a lot of casual and explicit homophobia and hate in the public school i went to. i got called queer and f** and gay (as a slur) all the time. i think 'queer' has always been my identifier of choice to sort of take that power away from my tormentors.

    but i agree with you almost completely. i sort of resent the implication that there is a correct way to be gay, if this makes sense. i'm never trying to convert anybody to my views. i'd just like them to be heard and/or at the least considered. i sometimes think there is a pressure in these groups to all be on 'the same page'. but this is, in itself, a sort of homophobia to me. we don't expect heteros to all have one global 'hetero' viewpoint in terms of politics or philosophy. i think we should allow ourselves the same rite ... again, as long as it isn't something super hateful or evil.
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  6. #6636
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.k.i.d. View Post
    .
    when their are TV Shows 'Queer Eye..." "Queen as Folk" college classes "#Queen Theory" and part of the description homosexual's "GenderQueer" It's time to get some thick skin and accept that word has changed and ask yourself what exactly about the word offends you so. The few people I've encountered that have ever been offended by that word were young white gays who (from my limited perspective) to be holding on to the offensivenessof that word so they could have their own 'N-word' which I only abreviated to not get banned. I have no problem with anyone saying it.

    I take it that you agree?
    Quote Originally Posted by jeanvaljean View Post
    I usually also like to remind people of "We're here, we're Queer, we're used to it."
    The battle cry of the generations that started it all for us.
    That isnt how offence works. You dont get to tell someone what they can and cannot find offensive.

    Either you accept that actually, just because you and US culture appears to have accepted and appropriated the word, outside of the US, it can still be incredibly offensive - or you accept that 'you' have been told over and over that that word is offensive to some and yet it keeps being used, and then defended in such a way that is so self entitled and ignorant of other people's feelings that it frankly makes you as bad as someone using it in an actually offensive way.

    No one has the right to tell anyone they can't use a word to describe themselves; if someone wants to call themselves that, I dont get it, but they can go for it.

    But what I can do, and what Kieran can do, is keep telling people to stop using it as a catch all word that we get described as by default, regardless of whatever else American culture is trying to do with it
    I will raise my throne above the Stars of God

  7. #6637
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    Do you have any other, less offensive to your sensibilities catch-all word to suggest, then?

    Or do you just not like unity?

  8. #6638
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    Also:

    I have been volunteering in HIV causes for close to 14 years, in LGBTQIA community causes for a decade.

    Legion_Quest and Kiernan_Frost here are literally the only two I even remember ever expressing discomfort with the word queer. Out of hundreds of possible offendees. So at the beginning I thought they were just playing a practical joke here, but it seems they are serious.

    I even googled "is queer offensive" to see if there are more like them, and the first hit I get was this article, which is only about straight people's use of "queer."

    And then this one which states:

    Today, a lot of people prefer queer—as an all-inclusive term meaning "not straight"—to the various alphabet soup alternatives like LGBT, LGBTQIA, QUILTBAG, GSM, etc. I've met a few people who don't like it; mostly people who are older and lived through the decades when it was still used as a serious insult. However, there's a general sense among people who use it that using an acronym of labels limits us as a community; forcing individuals to choose a label that they may not feel completely comfortable with and excluding people who don't feel able to do that.
    And I don't know how old l_q is, but kiernan I think is a preppie, definitely too young to remember the Thatcher years.

    And the end of that paragraph is also important:
    By rejecting the catch-all, you are forcing people to make choices about imaginary categories.

    Which can actually be quite hurtful, and exclude people, too.

  9. #6639
    Astonishing Member mojotastic's Avatar
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    Queer mean people who are not herosexual, why have it when the G and L already exist ?

  10. #6640
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojotastic View Post
    Queer mean people who are not herosexual, why have it when the G and L already exist ?
    What part of "you are forcing people to make choices about imaginary categories" confuses you?

  11. #6641
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanvaljean View Post
    Legion_Quest and Kiernan_Frost here are literally the only two I even remember ever expressing discomfort with the word queer. Out of hundreds of possible offendees. So at the beginning I thought they were just playing a practical joke here, but it seems they are serious.

    I even googled "is queer offensive" to see if there are more like them, and the first hit I get was this article, which is only about straight people's use of "queer."
    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/gay-man...ry?id=20855582

    Gay Man Says Millennial Term 'Queer' Is Like the 'N' Word

    John Kichi, a 66-year-old writer and marketing expert in Sewickley, Pa., recalled how decades ago he was thrown out of an apartment and later lost a prestigious job because he was gay.

    So when he began an online application for a job at Colorado College recently, he was shocked by a question that asked applicants to check one of five genders: "not disclosed," "male," "female," "transgender" -- or "queer."

    "It would be like if they put down for race: 'white,' 'Latino,' 'black' and then the 'N' word,'" Kichi told ABCNews.com. "Every one of my gay friends is appalled by this. This is something I had never seen before."

    Kichi said he had filed a complaint with the Colorado Attorney General's Office and will soon do so with the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

    "I think queer harkens back to a time when being gay was a documented medical abnormality," he said. "Queer is also not a gender, and if you want to list sexual orientation, that's even more egregious. To me, this was an attempt by the university to scare away anyone who wasn't straight."


    The progressive college, nestled against the Rocky Mountains in conservative Colorado Springs, said it "absolutely" understands why Kichi might be upset, but times have changed.

    Today, young people who don't fall into "binary" roles such as male or female or gay or straight are embracing a new identity -- LGBTIQA, or lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer or asexual, said Brett Gray, the LGBTIQA specialist at Colorado College.

    And according to an article published earlier this year in The New York Times, even more semantic distinctions come with the "Q," for questioning, or "A" for ally of those who are LGBTIQA.

    "It's generational," said Gray. "We understand 'queer' is a charged term, but ever since the 1990s, it has been reclaimed by many," he said.

    Many liberal arts colleges have adapted the phrase "queer studies" to define their broader gender studies programs, and have created "queer" resource programs. This fall, the University of Pennsylvania held a Queer Method Conference.

    The controversy underscores the ever-changing language of those who say they are not "cisgender" -- a term that applies to those whose gender identity matches their biology.

    Kichi's complaints have sparked a conversation at the college and an opportunity to educate the community, said Gray. "We want to get the word out on where we are coming from and what our intentions are."

    Colorado College states on its website that it does not "discriminate on the basis of color, national origin, gender, sex, age, religion, gender identity, gender expression, disability or sexual orientation" in its employment practices.

    But what confuses Kichi is why a college that says it does not discriminate would even ask potential applicants about their gender or sexual orientation.

    But, Gray said, filling out the descriptive boxes is voluntary.

    "When someone is applying, we are as welcoming and inclusive as possible," he said. "We are committed to a diverse work force and with the information optionally given, we have a better idea of our application pool."

    Jesse Paul, editor of the Colorado College newspaper, said LGBTIQA students are comfortable with the term "queer."

    "Most people here generally think it's a positive environment and accept the word broadly as not an offensive term in any way," he said.

    Paul wrote about the controversy in The Catalyst, the independent Colorado College newspaper, but said for the most part the community was unfazed. "They didn't know about it or weren't interested."

    Reina Gossett, a 30-year-old transgender woman who identifies as "queer," said the term is "political" and has a "legacy of resistance."

    "There is a long history of people who identified on the margins of culture," she said. "It's about naming a lineage of people who are gender outlaws and didn't fit into normative ideas about what it means to be gay or lesbian. It's a way to subvert the idea that we should all be normal. That being like everyone else is a good thing."

    Gossett works with the Sylvia Rivera Law Project, which assists low-income transgender communities, providing legal services and education.

    Sylvia Rivera was a veteran of the 1969 Stonewall uprising, and fought against the exclusion of transgender people from the Sexual Orientation Non-Discrimination Act in New York. She died in 2002.

    In the early days of the gay pride movement, those who self-identified as "drag queens" and "transvestites" were "tossed aside" by middle-class professionals, said Gossett.

    "She was literally kicked off the stage in a gay pride rally in 1973," she said. Gossett said calling herself queer is a way to be "part of a larger movement."

    But John Kichi is sticking to his guns about the connotation of "queer."

    "The current generation of 20-somethings may be kicking the word around and having fun with it, but it's not a gender," said Kichi. "I didn't fight the fight to get as far as we are today."

  12. #6642
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Oh, you found a third guy (unless that is legion_quest IRL?)

    And correct me if I am wrong, #30, but aren't you just a straight guy who enjoys stirring pots and rousing rabble?

  13. #6643
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/m...ea17aa65d.html

    'Queer' is still derogatory to many, but more people are embracing the word as their identity

    For those of a certain age, the word “queer” evokes painful memories of growing up feeling different than most everyone else.

    But today, especially among young people, queer is often used as an umbrella term for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community, often shortened to LGBT. Others use queer to push back against binary thinking to demonstrate that sexual orientation and gender identity can be fluid and not easily categorized.

    “Some people use queer as a catchall term,” said Landon Brownfield, 23, a gay man who is comfortable with the word queer being used to identify him and others in the LGBT community. “Others use it as a lack of identity politics — ‘I don’t know what I am. I must be queer.’ It’s a label that rejects labels.”

    The word’s primary dictionary definition remains “strange, or odd.” And it is from that definition that queer melded into a term for those who are gay, or perceived so, immediately setting them apart from heterosexuals.

    Ian Darnell, 29, a researcher focusing on LGBT history and working on a doctorate at the University of Illinois-Chicago, said the meaning of words evolve, including those once meant to be derogatory.

    Growing up in St. Louis, Darnell said he struggles to recall hearing queer used as a slur.

    “But gay was routinely used in a way that was supposed to cause hurt, like ‘That’s so gay,’” Darnell said. In that instance, gay is replacing queer to essentially say someone is strange or different.

    “People don’t literally mean gay, which means happy, carefree,” Darnell said.

    So for younger people, growing up with gay being used as a slur could explain why they are more comfortable with queer, he said. However, the term is not universally embraced in the LGBT community, especially among those middle-aged or older.

    “I hate it,” Betty D. Neeley, 79, said. “When I was young, the word was nasty and when somebody called you queer, they didn’t like you. I’ve just never gotten over that these kids think this is a cool word. It’s been everything hateful. You could not feel good about yourself when somebody called you that.”


    Longtime activist Stephen Houldsworth understands the division. Queer was a word activists used in the early 1990s to call attention to the AIDS epidemic, and as part of the gay liberation movement. Groups such as Queer Nation and ACT UP would take to the streets, shouting: “We’re here, we’re queer, get used to it!”

    While the movements drew media attention, the word queer remained an uncomfortable one to embrace.

    “The older version of queer as a hate word was still strong,” said Houldsworth, 52, of Swansea.

    But out of those activist movements, the word queer took hold on college campuses. Today, across the country, gender studies programs often include courses on queer theory.

    “It went from the streets to academia,” Houldsworth said. “Professors who were studying sexual identity, gender identity and expression, it became part of their natural jargon.”

    As a result, he said, “there is much broader acceptance.”

    Jeffrey McCune is a professor of women, gender and sexuality studies at Washington University, which includes queer theory.

    “What I like to say is academia infiltrated social communities and gave a language to diversity of sexuality through the use of the term queer,” McCune said. “It creates a new way of thinking about gender, sexuality, and to some degree, is what activism is. Queerness actually says, ‘This is not something particular.’ It’s disruptive still. It shifts society’s notions of gender and sexuality.”

    While the word queer continues to rise in usage, it is dominant among the white middle class part of the LGBT community, McCune said.

    “Queer does not encapsulate all diversities within the LGBT community,” said McCune, who is African-American. “To use queer for many black and brown folks in the LGBT community means further marginalizing themselves by marking them as something strange, when they are often already thought of as strangers in American society. It’s just another way they feel excluded within their own community.”

    Houldsworth refers to queer as “an inside word,” a term to be used only by those within the LGBT community. “Outside the community, unless they are quoting someone, I’m not OK with it,” he said.


    Growing up in the 1960s and ’70s, Houldsworth knows how the word was used to hurt. Even as someone who marched with Queer Nation and ACT UP in his hometown of Boston, saying the word queer as an act of defiance then remains very different than hearing it tossed about in today’s general vernacular.


    The entertainment world has broadened the use of queer over the past two decades.

    In 2000, Showtime debuted “Queer As Folk,” a show revolving around a group of gay men and women living in Pittsburgh. The show lasted five seasons. Around the same time, “Queer Eye for the Straight Guy” became a breakout hit on Bravo.

    Today, Queerty is a popular news and entertainment site with the tagline: “Free of an agenda. Except that gay one.”

    And offered as an alternative to PrideFest in downtown St. Louis this weekend, is the fifth-annual STL Queer Bomb!, a dance party “brought to you by no corporate sponsors. We throw this out of love for you,” organizers say in the invitation for the south St. Louis event.

    Steven Brawley, founder of the St. Louis LGBT History Project, said the word queer can help avoid “the often complicated LGBTQIA alphabet.”

    Many people don’t know what all the letters in the growing acronym mean, said Brownfield, director of marketing and public relations for St. Louis PrideFest. And in some cases, the additional letters have more than one meaning, he said.

    For example, Q can stand for queer or questioning, I is for intersex and A is for asexual — although the A is often added to the acronym to represent allies, those who are supportive of the community.

    But making queer the overarching term for the LGBT community would be a defeat in a long, hard fight, McCune said.

    “I don’t think it is in the best interest of the LGBT community to erase the very specificity of identity. I hope that people will continue to push back the idea that it is a term we all can use and fall up under.”


    But time has a way of changing things.

    “Fifty years ago, it would have been strange to say ‘my son is gay’ instead of ‘my son is homosexual,’” Darnell said. “Gay slowly drifted into the mainstream of the English language and is now normal. I expect the process may be underway for queer.”

  14. #6644
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    Also, the fact that Kichi is considered newsworthy shows just how "man bites dog" gay bros are who don't like the word "queer."

  15. #6645
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanvaljean View Post
    Oh, you found a third guy (unless that is legion_quest IRL?)

    And correct me if I am wrong, #30, but aren't you just a straight guy who enjoys stirring pots and rousing rabble?
    Simply pointing out that what seems to be a near monolith in your view and experience might not be out past that. There is a world outside of what everyone has seen and done.

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