The LGBTQIA-community

[PretenderNX01]

No, but along with drug taking (also a personal choice), it is the main way that people were getting infected in the 80s.

Quick refresher, Ryan White and Arthur Ashe and people who got HIV from blood transfusions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_White
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ashe
http://www.people.com/article/ryan-l...m-hiv-positive

They even did a Golden Girls episode about it


http://www.npr.org/2014/07/22/333759...-us-about-aids

And it still happens
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/artic...-through-blood

The AIDS crisis wasn't just about people infected with AIDS, for that matter, but the severe amount of misinformation out there that resulted in people being ostracized, bullied, fired, beaten, etc. AIDS, particularly the AIDS that everyone can catch by sitting next to a guy who might be gay as common wisdom had it, was a major social issue that the US government could have stepped in on in a useful way and, well, they chose to let it keep burning instead, until, apparently, Nancy Reagan had a friend effected, and isn't that so sweet, she actually cared about her friend (!) just no one else suffering.

And she may not have even cared about him that much:

Nancy Reagan Turned Down Rock Hudson’s Plea For Help Nine Weeks Before He Died
Rock Hudson was desperately trying to get treatment for AIDS in France in 1985. Much of that story has been told, but one part hasn’t: After a simple plea came in for White House help to get Hudson transferred to another hospital, First Lady Nancy Reagan turned down the request.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner...-help-seven-we
Granted women of her time didn't have much agency and she may have been pushed to deny him, I don't think she deserves credit for somehow helping when they didn't.

Equally, no one is suggesting that anyone who caught AIDS/HIV deserves it

A lot of people did at the time, including probably the Reagans themselves. That and crack flooding the ghetto have and always will be suspicious.

[legion_quest]

I do understand what you are trying to say BUT let's have a little sympathy. Firstly, when the epidemic was starting plenty of people (who were otherwise monogamous) got it from their partner. Secondly, while STDs were always a thing, STDs that KILLED were not that well known. It's vastly different. It didn't catch the gay community off guard because they were stupid or too driven by sex to care, it caught so many people because no-one really knew, not really. Which is why it took so many politicians so long to talk about this.

This is like blaming smokers for smoking before anyone knew it was a far bigger problem than anyone realised. I agree always practice safe sex but I have that mentality, in part, because of how active the gay community was in teaching safe sex BECAUSE of Aids. It's far more complex than "they just should have not slept around."

I do have sympathy, I just dislike the almost innate need some have to excuse or look elsewhere to blame when actually, there is a lot to be said for taking personal accountability. I do understand things were different in the 80s and certainly knowledge wasnt as easy to come buy as it is now thanks to the internet and general developments in society and with acceptance, but equally, there was stuff out there at the time, and as early as 1982 the sexually transmitted aspect was public knowledge. When dealing with something that was seen to be a 'gay issue' it just doesnt seem right to me not to actually look at someone and think 'I do feel for you, but dude, open your eyes, if you can see people dying, stop putting yourself at risk' - be that through drugs, sex or ignorance of the issue.

Because, this AIDS/sleeping around discussion has been on my mind (and a lot of queer minds since Nancy Reagan's death, I'd imagine), and I just saw a lovely sentiment in a Queerty comments section, how do y'all feel about "traditional" hook up/cruising culture? The commenter was talking about how, rather than "meaningless" sex, they thought it was very communal and intimate/freeing, especially in the sense that so many local gay/lesbian/bi scenes can be framed in a network of sexual histories that have blossomed from or fostering lots of strong friendships and good acquaintances, as opposed to nasty behind-the-back stepping out or you-and-your-friends-now-must-hate-your-ex sexual-social politics.

I'm not entirely convinced, and there's certainly a do-this-then-split scene anywhere you go, too, but it's a nice idea and I admit I can see a lot of that in friends and local communities I'm familiar with.

I'm not sure what you mean? A sort of communal friends with benefits situation? Is that a thing? Perhaps more of an American thing, or at least a more 'scene' thing?

Quick refresher, Ryan White and Arthur Ashe and people who got HIV from blood transfusions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_White
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ashe
http://www.people.com/article/ryan-l...m-hiv-positive

They even did a Golden Girls episode about it


http://www.npr.org/2014/07/22/333759...-us-about-aids

And it still happens
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/artic...-through-blood

The key word in my comment was most. While people clearly got infected by accident and through poor medical practice, that wasnt the majority, which was through sex and drugs, of any sexual preference.

[Silvermoth]

I think you may have to read up a bit more about the history of the AIDS epidemic and learn the history of people who were on the front lines at the time. It's often said that AIDS campaigners were front and center for politically motivated lgbtiq groups which gave us the rights we enjoy today.

Maybe start off by reading "holding the man" by Timothy connigrave or see the movie "the normal heart"

Because, this AIDS/sleeping around discussion has been on my mind (and a lot of queer minds since Nancy Reagan's death, I'd imagine), and I just saw a lovely sentiment in a Queerty comments section, how do y'all feel about "traditional" hook up/cruising culture? The commenter was talking about how, rather than "meaningless" sex, they thought it was very communal and intimate/freeing, especially in the sense that so many local gay/lesbian/bi scenes can be framed in a network of sexual histories that have blossomed from or fostering lots of strong friendships and good acquaintances, as opposed to nasty behind-the-back stepping out or you-and-your-friends-now-must-hate-your-ex sexual-social politics.

I'm not entirely convinced, and there's certainly a do-this-then-split scene anywhere you go, too, but it's a nice idea and I admit I can see a lot of that in friends and local communities I'm familiar with.

Personally I'm not a fan of hook up culture but I don't judge the people who do do it. I remember reading a fasinating article once by a brilliant gay/HIV rights campaigner writer called Nic holas who said that originally it was a way of gay people passing down knowledge from one experienced person to the next in a time before the Internet when lgbtiq lives were highly controlled. I've always thought that was fasinating.

I do understand what you are trying to say BUT let's have a little sympathy. Firstly, when the epidemic was starting plenty of people (who were otherwise monogamous) got it from their partner. Secondly, while STDs were always a thing, STDs that KILLED were not that well known. It's vastly different. It didn't catch the gay community off guard because they were stupid or too driven by sex to care, it caught so many people because no-one really knew, not really. Which is why it took so many politicians so long to talk about this.

This is like blaming smokers for smoking before anyone knew it was a far bigger problem than anyone realised. I agree always practice safe sex but I have that mentality, in part, because of how active the gay community was in teaching safe sex BECAUSE of Aids. It's far more complex than "they just should have not slept around."

Thanks Kieran, you're often the balanced reasonable voice

[Supernature]

Not gonna address the blatant ignorance about the AIDS crisis displayed in this thread. Other posters already said what I wanted to say <3.

The second episode of Gaycation is up: https://www.viceland.com/en_us/video...b6e07a13d27d01
It's about Brazil.

The next episode is about Jamaica. And as a gay man of Caribbean origin, I already know it's going to be hard to watch.

[Charmed]

My alleged mother is Jamaican, so I look forward to watching that one. I expect to hear a lot of 'batimans' (slur for gay men) being thrown around in that video, since I hear it quite a bit in Miami.

[legion_quest]

I think you may have to read up a bit more about the history of the AIDS epidemic and learn the history of people who were on the front lines at the time. It's often said that AIDS campaigners were front and center for politically motivated lgbtiq groups which gave us the rights we enjoy today.

I've seen that movie, and it does highlight the issues that AIDS/HIV sufferers dealt with in the earlier days of the crisis and before it became more public knowledge, but that movie also very much takes the 'victim' approach, over playing the disgust one is meant to feel about the GRID name when that was only ever used by a very small amount of people for about 3 months before it became obvious the issue wasnt totally gay related (though from the evidence at the time and the geographic areas where this illness was being noticed at first, it did make some sense to consider it an illness that seemed to only be hitting the gay community, until more and more cases came to light. That could be seen as wrong, because of the latter knowledge we have, but at the time the evidence the doctors were seeing did support that in isolation) and the condition was renamed.

I have said several times that the government response was late, and even wrong in the early days (this is where 'The Normal Heart' does really well, in highlighting that even when it was evident this was a spreading potential pandemic, no money would be given over for further work possibly because of institutionalised homophobia and racism), but I continue to maintain, and will do no matter how people want to try and emote me in to feeling bad for having the opinion, that more could have been done by the individual to safeguard themselves (across sexual orientation), especially after 1984 when information was much more prevalent.

I dont think we are going to find a consensus of opinion, or agree on this issue. I can understand that, especially for those who are perhaps older than I am or who lived in areas or knew (or know) people who contracted the illness. This is a personal issue, but equally, for people who feel part of an LGBT community, it is a community issue as well. This is going to stir up emotions and prompt an emotional response. However, I know that I do not tend to look at things from an emotional point of view, and instead look at things from a practical point of view and that tends to be where my more colder view comes from regarding personal responsibility and how important it should be.

I retain my right to that colder opinion, but equally respect the more emotive views in the thread and hope that we can at least agree that things have gotten better - they aren't perfect mind - but they have gotten better.

[Viteh]

This is going to stir up emotions and prompt an emotional response. However, I know that I do not tend to look at things from an emotional point of view, and instead look at things from a practical point of view and that tends to be where my more colder view comes from regarding personal responsibility and how important it should be.

I retain my right to that colder opinion, but equally respect the more emotive views in the thread and hope that we can at least agree that things have gotten better - they aren't perfect mind - but they have gotten better.

Just because you call it practical does not make it practical, and just because someone has emotions does not mean their opinion is any less practical.

[Reality]

Just because you call it practical does not make it practical, and just because someone has emotions does not mean their opinion is any less practical.

He means "logical." In which case emotions are irrelevant to logic and cannot be used to refute it.

But while it's true that it is the behavior of most early HIV victims was what caused their infection, that doesn't mean that they bear responsibility for that. There was no real reason not to sleep around. The worst STDs were syphillis and herpes, which both can be treated and the former of which only being fatal if it is left untreated for decades. It was a time of great promiscuity in both straight and queer populations, but the added risk of pregnancy made straight people better about condom use. Gay men had little serious reason to use condoms, which pled to that population being harder hit.

And they were not the only population being hit, even early on. They were the majority, though, so the people who got it who weren't openly gay faced terrible discrimination whether or not they caught the disease through secret homosexuality. Which is an often overlooked fact of HIV. The most at-risk group is women in long term relationships with closeted men who have unsafe sex. That's largely because the gay community has worked hard to normalize condom use in gay men, which is why that group is less at risk these days.

It all comes down to the culture of the time being unprepared to deal with HIV. The promiscuity, lack of condom use in many, the less serious nature of traditional STDs and the stigma of homosexuality attached to the disease made the perfect situation for a pandemic to take root. There was no preparing for it, and the knowledge of how to protect oneself from it had all of those ideas and attitudes to overcome. And when it came to the gay community, most were already infected before that point.

I really look forward to an HIV vaccine. There's one that shows promising results in human trials now. I reckon another sexual revolution will happen when HIV is defeated. It will be glorious!

[Reality]

The second Wachowski sibling (creators of "The Matrix" movie series and currently of Sense8) has come out as transgender.
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/m....php?AID=54509

Lilly Wachowski has a more lengthy and well written post that links to but here's the highlights:

Uh, transgender people aren't murdered more than anyone else. The rate is actually exceedingly low. Only 20-25 trans people are murdered every year that we know of, in the US out of a group of thousands. And murder is a crime that is hard to make completely disappear- even the lack of a body still leaves a person missing. So while it's likely a bit higher than that, it isn't what the internet makes it out to be. And at best two million trans people in America it's not really possible for the murders of trans people to be that common, without even getting into how many of those murders are actually hate crimes.

Here's a decent link breaking down the numbers and why the 1 in 12 stat is incorrect. http://parkthatcar.net/2013/11/20/ca...tistic-please/

But the rest of that was good. I'm always interested to hear trans people talk about what their experiences have been like. It's a fascinating process, transitioning.

[Silvermoth]

Not sure about that murder statistic but there has definitely been a rise in trans murders and several other horrible statistics too. Trans people often receive physical harassment on the street and have terrifyingly high rates of suicide. The average life expectancy of trans people is just 23 years, mostly due to a lack of understanding and blocking them from getting the health services they need.

Trans rights are definitely something the civil rights movement will have to work on. For example in my country trans people can't transition without getting court approval first. Why do that? It's silly. Why would a stranger know your health and body better than you would?

Not gonna address the blatant ignorance about the AIDS crisis displayed in this thread. Other posters already said what I wanted to say <3.

The second episode of Gaycation is up: https://www.viceland.com/en_us/video...b6e07a13d27d01
It's about Brazil.

The next episode is about Jamaica. And as a gay man of Caribbean origin, I already know it's going to be hard to watch.

That sounds fascinating. I can't wait to check it out

[Reality]

Not sure about that murder statistic but there has definitely been a rise in trans murders and several other horrible statistics too. Trans people often receive physical harassment on the street and have terrifyingly high rates of suicide. The average life expectancy of trans people is just 23 years, mostly due to a lack of understanding and blocking them from getting the health services they need.

Trans rights are definitely something the civil rights movement will have to work on. For example in my country trans people can't transition without getting court approval first. Why do that? It's silly. Why would a stranger know your health and body better than you would?



That sounds fascinating. I can't wait to check it out

I am sure about the murder statistic. The one that floats around is quite literally impossible. But trans people are at higher risk of violence other than murder, homelessness, suicide and the like. Basically all the problems that plague gay people but more so. There are lots of civil rights issues to do with trans people, and murder is not one.

And we live in the same country. I would imagine those laws are to weed out people who don't really want to transition, which is a problem. There have been lawsuits post-op from regretful people.it's incredibly major surgery, so some safeguards are needed. At least trans people can be married and are legallyrecognized as their true gender here. So in marriage at least they have more rights than LGB people. And at least transitioning essentially cures dysphoria, so if intervention is early enough the suicide problem could be solved. Lots of work left to do, though.

[Viteh]

He means "logical." In which case emotions are irrelevant to logic and cannot be used to refute it. !

Yeah, I know, it still applies. Calling your opinion "logical/practical" and other's opinions "emotional" is just a way to dimiss them.

From what I've read in this thread, the argument against his point of view is that there was much less information available, and it wasn't as simple as "just wear a condom". That's not an emotional argument.

[Viteh]

Not gonna address the blatant ignorance about the AIDS crisis displayed in this thread. Other posters already said what I wanted to say <3.

The second episode of Gaycation is up: https://www.viceland.com/en_us/video...b6e07a13d27d01
It's about Brazil.

The next episode is about Jamaica. And as a gay man of Caribbean origin, I already know it's going to be hard to watch.

I am really liking this series.

Edit: Finished it. The last few minutes were just too much.

[Supernature]

I am really liking this series.

Edit: Finished it. The last few minutes were just too much.

I actually went "nope" and fast forwarded during that interview with the last guy.
Homosexuality is a sin but killing people is OK ? Bigots and their astounding lack of logic...

Also I admire Ellen for not punching that politician.

[Viteh]

I actually went "nope" and fast forwarded during that interview with the last guy.
Homosexuality is a sin but killing people is OK ? Bigots and their astounding lack of logic...

Also I admire Ellen for not punching that politician.

Probably for the best, it was really hard to watch. So much hate, I just don't get it.