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  1. #8206
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Every case I have read about either reincarnation or NDEs when really researched, turns out to have natural explanations, going all the way back to Bridey Murphy. The problem with these anecdotal cases, told by believers is it takes a lot of effort and time to investigate. But I have not seen one bare scrutiny.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #8207
    Mighty Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    No. But even once has to be explained, don't you think?
    So if people who see visions of Heaven or Hell are seeing true visions of the afterlife, what about the people who see something else? Are these alternative afterlives? Or is God feeding them fake visions for reasons of His own?

    Has to be explained, don't you think?

  3. #8208
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    So if people who see visions of Heaven or Hell are seeing true visions of the afterlife, what about the people who see something else? Are these alternative afterlives? Or is God feeding them fake visions for reasons of His own?

    Has to be explained, don't you think?
    I'll answer your question when you answer mine
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

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  4. #8209
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Every case I have read about either reincarnation or NDEs when really researched, turns out to have natural explanations, going all the way back to Bridey Murphy. The problem with these anecdotal cases, told by believers is it takes a lot of effort and time to investigate. But I have not seen one bare scrutiny.
    That doesn't really answer my question. How do you explain them?
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  5. #8210
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    THE YEAST OF UNBELIEF
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...ugust-15-2019/
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  6. #8211
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    That doesn't really answer my question. How do you explain them?
    You are asking me to explain one case that is anecdotal and never been objectively investigated. As I said, in EVERY case I have seen that has been thoroughly investigated, there turns out to be a prosaic explanation. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. When ever I see these with the claim "It couldn't be anything but..." it always could be another thing.

    And BTW, we are just seeing your retelling of these stories. One time there was a man, there was a child who... No link where you read them, no way to tell if they have been objectively investigated. So how can you ask us for an explanation to a vague anecdote, retold.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 08-15-2019 at 09:52 AM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #8212
    Mighty Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    I'll answer your question when you answer mine
    Okay then.

    Possibilities:
    * The parents told the child but forgot.
    * The child overheard the parents discussing the dead sibling without the parents knowing.
    * The child discovered documentation regarding dead sibling while snooping.
    * Another relative/family friend decided the child needed to know and told them.
    * The child invented the story regarding the dead sibling and happened to guess the family secret.

    And that is off the top of my head.

  8. #8213
    What fresh hell is this? ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    That doesn't really answer my question. How do you explain them?
    Brain death is a process. It isn't like flipping off a light-switch. Typically there is residual oxygen being taken in and electrical activity going on for in the brain for a few minutes after the heart ceases. To outward appearance the person is dead but may still be hearing and feeling sensation in their extremities for a short period though they are no longer breathing or responding to stimuli.
    Last edited by ChadH; 08-15-2019 at 05:49 PM.
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  9. #8214
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    I'm sorry I brought the subject of NDEs up. I had no idea the subject was in any way controversial. I did not mean to derail this thread.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  10. #8215
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'm sorry I brought the subject of NDEs up. I had no idea the subject was in any way controversial. I did not mean to derail this thread.
    No worries. It happens. This thread often has little detours.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  11. #8216
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    No worries. It happens. This thread often has little detours.
    I could have added links to the studies I've mentioned (anyone can find them if they search through the anthropology section of Google Scholar), but frankly, I'm too lazy right now lol.

    Hopefully this thread will get back on track soon.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  12. #8217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I'm sorry I brought the subject of NDEs up. I had no idea the subject was in any way controversial. I did not mean to derail this thread.
    Its an interesting subject, and somewhat relevant. As a science professional, and even though I am a staunch Christian, I tend to think these NDEs are just matters of the brain playing tricks on people. The human brain is a fantastic work of science and art that we have no ability to even come close to comprehending. And I really do believe in mind over matter, and that God has given us many of our own tools to unlock mysteries about our own bodies and their potential. My stance on this actually just makes me respect the creator even more for the amazing way we are created.

    But I also think it would be unlike God to allow us to actually enter heaven and then come back to earth to talk about it. Seems inconsistent with the notion of faith as I see it.

    Not to derail even farther, but anyone ever study Michelangelo and the so-called secret messages in the Sistine Chapel? A few months ago I stood there in awe for my first time ever, seeing the God/brain. Its remarkable what the artist was saying, with that entire ceiling.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 08-16-2019 at 10:40 AM.
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  13. #8218
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Its an interesting subject, and somewhat relevant. As a science professional, and even though I am a staunch Christian, I tend to think these NDEs are just matters of the brain playing tricks on people. The human brain is a fantastic work of science and art that we have no ability to even come close to comprehending. And I really do believe in mind over matter, and that God has given us many of our own tools to unlock mysteries about our own bodies and their potential. My stance on this actually just makes me respect the creator even more for the amazing way we are created.

    But I also think it would be unlike God to allow us to actually enter heaven and then come back to earth to talk about it. Seems inconsistent with the notion of faith as I see it.

    Not to derail even farther, but anyone ever study Michelangelo and the so-called secret messages in the Sistine Chapel? A few months ago I stood there in awe for my first time ever, seeing the God/brain. Its remarkable what the artist was saying, with that entire ceiling.
    I have been there 3 times. Before and after the restoration. I wasn't aware of this.This is an interesting conjecture. Since we have nothing from Michelangelo that confirms this, it remains speculation. But it is not outside the realm of possibility. Did he see Leonardo's anatomy work by this point?
    I'll just be agnostic about this.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  14. #8219
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Its an interesting subject, and somewhat relevant. As a science professional, and even though I am a staunch Christian, I tend to think these NDEs are just matters of the brain playing tricks on people. The human brain is a fantastic work of science and art that we have no ability to even come close to comprehending. And I really do believe in mind over matter, and that God has given us many of our own tools to unlock mysteries about our own bodies and their potential. My stance on this actually just makes me respect the creator even more for the amazing way we are created.

    But I also think it would be unlike God to allow us to actually enter heaven and then come back to earth to talk about it. Seems inconsistent with the notion of faith as I see it.

    Not to derail even farther, but anyone ever study Michelangelo and the so-called secret messages in the Sistine Chapel? A few months ago I stood there in awe for my first time ever, seeing the God/brain. Its remarkable what the artist was saying, with that entire ceiling.
    Eye witness accounts are not scientific evidence, if so people would also have to take in to account the sighting of Bigfoot and UFOs. The single eyewitness accounts in NDEs are not subject to challenge so are not reliable. The brain shuts down in specific ways between clinical death to biological death depending on the manner or circumstances of the event. These specific ways in which the brain shuts down can explain people having similar experiences while dyeing.

    The term "near death experiences" is just that no one has ever come back from being complexly biological dead so no one has truly died and come back (Think of it like the Princess Bride and being mostly dead but not all the way dead). So how could you go the heaven and see your dead relatives with out being completely dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I have been there 3 times. Before and after the restoration. I wasn't aware of this.This is an interesting conjecture. Since we have nothing from Michelangelo that confirms this, it remains speculation. But it is not outside the realm of possibility. Did he see Leonardo's anatomy work by this point?
    I'll just be agnostic about this.
    The idea of the God/Brain in Michelangelo's painting was not brought up until the 90s. There is also a theory that it is an image of a uterus too.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 08-16-2019 at 12:14 PM.
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  15. #8220
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    Okay then.

    Possibilities:
    * The parents told the child but forgot.
    * The child overheard the parents discussing the dead sibling without the parents knowing.
    * The child discovered documentation regarding dead sibling while snooping.
    * Another relative/family friend decided the child needed to know and told them.
    * The child invented the story regarding the dead sibling and happened to guess the family secret.

    And that is off the top of my head.
    Except none of that occurred. The parents were very adamant that they never told the child because they didn't want her to know.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

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