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  1. #8746
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    HEAVENLY REWARD
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/29/
    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

    “I am a citizen of the universe. And a gentleman to boot.”--The Doctor

  2. #8747
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Question: If the root of all sin and evil in the world is derived from human free will and, in heaven there is no sin or evil. Does that mean that there will be no free will in heaven?
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  3. #8748
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Question: If the root of all sin and evil in the world is derived from human free will and, in heaven there is no sin or evil. Does that mean that there will be no free will in heaven?
    Free Will is a concept that quickly becomes a bottomless abyss of incoherence once it is dissected.

    For example. God did not intervene in the Holocaust because Hitler had free will. But the 6,000,000 Jews who also had free will did not choose to die in the gas chambers. So did God choose the free will of Hitler over the free will of a third of his chosen people?
    Last edited by Kirby101; 05-29-2020 at 03:10 PM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #8749
    Paranoid Android ChadH's Avatar
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    Some physicists, including Einstein, ascribe to the theory of Super-determinism, which excludes the possibility of free will.
    John Bell (of Bells theorem) explains:
    There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the "decision" by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster than light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already "knows" what that measurement, and its outcome, will be.
    Food for thought.
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  5. #8750
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Question: If the root of all sin and evil in the world is derived from human free will and, in heaven there is no sin or evil. Does that mean that there will be no free will in heaven?
    That's a good question, and one I might address someday, but honestly, I'm kind of tired of debating on this board. I would rather spend my time discussing positive things with other believers, than argue over theological issues and the like. No offense, I'm just tired.
    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

    “I am a citizen of the universe. And a gentleman to boot.”--The Doctor

  6. #8751
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    GOD IS FAITHFUL
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/30/
    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

    “I am a citizen of the universe. And a gentleman to boot.”--The Doctor

  7. #8752
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but I'm a believer who feels as though discussing the more problematic aspects of the biblical text is essential to a true appreciation.

    The biblical texts, its authors, editors and readers are in constant tension. And that's okay.

    I find it ironic that Jesus was essentially hated for challenging dogma (though to be clear, also affirming it in other places) and yet 2,000 years later we're still in much the same place. We often do in Jesus' name what the Pharisees did in Moses'.

    It's a difficult balancing act, to be sure, to stay true to your core beliefs while also being open to challenges. Often it turns out that things you once thought were essential to those core beliefs were really superficial all along, and sometimes contrary. Other times they prove true.

    Anyway, that's just my take, not a criticism of anyone else's.

    Just to throw an example out there, I was reading the story of Pentecost from the book of Acts yesterday, and it rang true. Today I was reading the story of Ananias and Saphira being struck dead over withholding some of the funds from a house they'd sold (or rather, lying about having given the church all of it). And I'm just not sure how you go so quickly from Christ forgiving his executioners to lying about a sum of money being a capital offense. To me, that's impossible to reconcile. And I don't think it's irreverent to say that's not how I see God at all.

  8. #8753
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but I'm a believer who feels as though discussing the more problematic aspects of the biblical text is essential to a true appreciation.

    The biblical texts, its authors, editors and readers are in constant tension. And that's okay.

    I find it ironic that Jesus was essentially hated for challenging dogma (though to be clear, also affirming it in other places) and yet 2,000 years later we're still in much the same place. We often do in Jesus' name what the Pharisees did in Moses'.

    It's a difficult balancing act, to be sure, to stay true to your core beliefs while also being open to challenges. Often it turns out that things you once thought were essential to those core beliefs were really superficial all along, and sometimes contrary. Other times they prove true.

    Anyway, that's just my take, not a criticism of anyone else's.

    Just to throw an example out there, I was reading the story of Pentecost from the book of Acts yesterday, and it rang true. Today I was reading the story of Ananias and Saphira being struck dead over withholding some of the funds from a house they'd sold (or rather, lying about having given the church all of it). And I'm just not sure how you go so quickly from Christ forgiving his executioners to lying about a sum of money being a capital offense. To me, that's impossible to reconcile. And I don't think it's irreverent to say that's not how I see God at all.
    Some things are hard to understand. But at the end of the day, all I can do is trust in God.
    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

    “I am a citizen of the universe. And a gentleman to boot.”--The Doctor

  9. #8754
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

    “I am a citizen of the universe. And a gentleman to boot.”--The Doctor

  10. #8755
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    I forgot to post about this on Friday. There were services for the late Ravi Zacharias. He meant a lot to me in my Christian faith. I would watch sermons of his or clips of him answering tough questions every night before bed. His life story and how he came to know Christ is really an inspiration. I just thought I would share that and say rest in peace brother. I know you are in our Father's kingdom right now.
    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

    “I am a citizen of the universe. And a gentleman to boot.”--The Doctor

  11. #8756
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Some things are hard to understand. But at the end of the day, all I can do is trust in God.
    I get that, but sometimes it's a question of whether you trust that the person who says it is speaking for God with 100% accuracy.

    For me, it's tricky--I believe the scriptures are divinely inspired, but not inerrant or free from typical human biases.

    I think of it kind of like a radio transmission with a lot of static. Some stuff comes through loud and clear, other stuff not so much. And it takes a lot of effort and sincerity to make out what's really being said.

    To my mind, it's a disservice to God to attribute authoritarian tendencies to Him/Her. It's not right because God says so, God says so because it's right. And if it's clearly NOT right, then I'd have to go with God having never said it.

  12. #8757
    God Save The Queen! Mia's Avatar
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    In my devotions The Almighty directed me to:

    If you live according to the sinful nature you will die. –Romans 8:13 (NIV)

    And this is His message to me: If you live according to your pride, ego, need to be right, perfectionism, comfort & fear of failure. Then you will ‘die’. You will never grow and you will never become the person who The Almighty meant for you to be.
    Amen.
    • “At some point you have to choose between who the world wants you to be and who you are”.- Black Widow
    • “You get wounded and you heal. The wound repairs itself. But you’re not the same. We take our scars with us. They make us who we are. And if we can’t accept our scars [we will never be fully healed].” –Sean Lenahan (House on Fire)

  13. #8758
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Free Will is a concept that quickly becomes a bottomless abyss of incoherence once it is dissected.

    For example. God did not intervene in the Holocaust because Hitler had free will. But the 6,000,000 Jews who also had free will did not choose to die in the gas chambers. So did God choose the free will of Hitler over the free will of a third of his chosen people?
    I understand the rabbit hole of free will and it's flawed application as the Holocaust is always brought to the for front when the subject is brought up. The questing ask would be more on the hypothetical side.

    I was watching The Matrix and when Agent Smith is telling Neo of the failed paradise simulation it reminded me of a debate that I watch with Dinesh D'Souza in which he said (paraphrased) that Adam and Eve rejected the paradise of the Garden of Eden because of human nature and free will, and that human nature is chaotic and can not truly accept perfection and free will is the reason for sin and evil.

    That made me think. If the Christian heaven It is a realm of perfection without evil and sin. Then it would seem that for people who would go there would have to be striped away of their human nature and free will for them to accept such a place.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  14. #8759
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    I understand the rabbit hole of free will and it's flawed application as the Holocaust is always brought to the for front when the subject is brought up. The questing ask would be more on the hypothetical side.

    I was watching The Matrix and when Agent Smith is telling Neo of the failed paradise simulation it reminded me of a debate that I watch with Dinesh D'Souza in which he said (paraphrased) that Adam and Eve rejected the paradise of the Garden of Eden because of human nature and free will, and that human nature is chaotic and can not truly accept perfection and free will is the reason for sin and evil.

    That made me think. If the Christian heaven It is a realm of perfection without evil and sin. Then it would seem that for people who would go there would have to be striped away of their human nature and free will for them to accept such a place.
    Interesting. D'Souza, who has always been wrong about everything, besides being a criminal, doesn't get in the Eden myth that Adam and Eve could not have had free will before eating the fruit that gave them the knowledge of right and wrong. The Eden myth is another rabbit whole.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  15. #8760
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    In my devotions The Almighty directed me to:

    If you live according to the sinful nature you will die. –Romans 8:13 (NIV)

    And this is His message to me: If you live according to your pride, ego, need to be right, perfectionism, comfort & fear of failure. Then you will ‘die’. You will never grow and you will never become the person who The Almighty meant for you to be.
    Amen.
    Amen Mia! Thank you
    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

    “I am a citizen of the universe. And a gentleman to boot.”--The Doctor

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