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  1. #8761
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

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  2. #8762
    God Save The Queen! Mia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Free Will is a concept that quickly becomes a bottomless abyss of incoherence once it is dissected.

    For example. God did not intervene in the Holocaust because Hitler had free will. But the 6,000,000 Jews who also had free will did not choose to die in the gas chambers. So did God choose the free will of Hitler over the free will of a third of his chosen people?
    Goodness gracious. Seriously.
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  3. #8763
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Goodness gracious. Seriously.
    Yes seriously. It's a legitimate question. "Free will" as an answer for why God allows bad things to happen is problematic to say the least.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #8764
    God Save The Queen! Mia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Yes seriously. It's a legitimate question. "Free will" as an answer for why God allows bad things to happen is problematic to say the least.
    It just seems like pretty much standard common sense to figure out to me.
    • “At some point you have to choose between who the world wants you to be and who you are”.- Black Widow
    • “You get wounded and you heal. The wound repairs itself. But you’re not the same. We take our scars with us. They make us who we are. And if we can’t accept our scars [we will never be fully healed].” –Sean Lenahan (House on Fire)

  5. #8765
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    It just seems like pretty much standard common sense to figure out to me.
    How so? Figure what?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  6. #8766
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Yes seriously. It's a legitimate question. "Free will" as an answer for why God allows bad things to happen is problematic to say the least.
    Free will is a philosophical concept that is not in the Bible. We mistakenly wander into its use because philosophy is taught in schools rather than religion. The Bible instead talks about God's omniscience. And that gets translated to essentially a form of causal determinism. But my answer to that is that God is not a cause, in that sense. Just because something bad happens to someone does not put him at fault just because he knew about it. I cite Phil in the Groundhog Day movie as an example of omniscience without causal determination. He knew that homeless guy was going to die and knew he could do absolutely squat about it.

    Why bad things happen to (good) people is a complicated topic, that has been hashed over many times in literature. The Bible's answer, I would say, is something akin to "because." There is a reason why the Bible is filled with suffering people, and not that many people who float through life unscathed. Among the many things the Bible says is (and I paraphrase) "put on your big boy pants because you are going to suffer!"
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  7. #8767
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Thanks Scott. And yet we still see the Fee Will explanation often used.

    As for your thoughtful post, I think Epicurus had an good response.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  8. #8768
    Astonishing Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Free will is a philosophical concept that is not in the Bible. We mistakenly wander into its use because philosophy is taught in schools rather than religion. The Bible instead talks about God's omniscience. And that gets translated to essentially a form of causal determinism. But my answer to that is that God is not a cause, in that sense. Just because something bad happens to someone does not put him at fault just because he knew about it. I cite Phil in the Groundhog Day movie as an example of omniscience without causal determination. He knew that homeless guy was going to die and knew he could do absolutely squat about it.

    Why bad things happen to (good) people is a complicated topic, that has been hashed over many times in literature. The Bible's answer, I would say, is something akin to "because." There is a reason why the Bible is filled with suffering people, and not that many people who float through life unscathed. Among the many things the Bible says is (and I paraphrase) "put on your big boy pants because you are going to suffer!"
    Provided those big boy pants are not made of mixed fibres, I take it (assuming we are to take the prohibitions of the Bible seriously).

    So what you're saying is that God knows everything that is going to happen, but is powerless to do anything about it? So why would you pray to Him, given He is unable to intervene on your behalf?
    Last edited by foxley; 06-03-2020 at 03:12 AM.

  9. #8769
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Epicurus, no answer for 2300 years

    Last edited by Kirby101; 06-03-2020 at 06:07 AM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  10. #8770
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Free will is a philosophical concept that is not in the Bible. We mistakenly wander into its use because philosophy is taught in schools rather than religion. The Bible instead talks about God's omniscience. And that gets translated to essentially a form of causal determinism. But my answer to that is that God is not a cause, in that sense. Just because something bad happens to someone does not put him at fault just because he knew about it. I cite Phil in the Groundhog Day movie as an example of omniscience without causal determination. He knew that homeless guy was going to die and knew he could do absolutely squat about it.

    Why bad things happen to (good) people is a complicated topic, that has been hashed over many times in literature. The Bible's answer, I would say, is something akin to "because." There is a reason why the Bible is filled with suffering people, and not that many people who float through life unscathed. Among the many things the Bible says is (and I paraphrase) "put on your big boy pants because you are going to suffer!"
    The Bible has the idea of choice spread throughout. It's a hard thing not to constitute the idea of choice in believe as free will. There are many verses in the bible of what can happen to those that reject God (hint he is a jealous God). Free will is imbedded in Christian religious philosophy when you are given the ability to choice Christ or not. The concept of the Holy Trinity in not in the bible yet it is the focal point of 99% of Christianity.

    In Isaiah God says he is the one that does all things, that he is the light and the dark that he brings the best of time and he brings the worst of times. The Bible does not only give God omniscience he is given omnipotence so the comparison of Phil is a little off as God is can do more than squat about it. No where in the Bible does it say that God in uncapable to act in fact it is quite the contrary saying so in God's own words. And if there is one thing that God cannot do according to the bible is lie.
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  11. #8771
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    FAILURE AND FAITHFULNESS
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/03/
    One thing I ask from the LORD, this only do I seek: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to gaze on the beauty of the LORD and to seek him in his temple.--Psalm 27:4

    “Fortunately for me, I'm not a cop. so, I can break your face into a jigsaw puzzle if I want to...”--Daredevil

    “I am a citizen of the universe. And a gentleman to boot.”--The Doctor

  12. #8772
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Thanks Scott. And yet we still see the Fee Will explanation often used.

    As for your thoughtful post, I think Epicurus had an good response.
    Epicurus has a good response, for certain. And if I had all the answers, I'd give him an logical answer, But this gets into the realm of faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    Provided those big boy pants are not made of mixed fibres, I take it (assuming we are to take the prohibitions of the Bible seriously).

    So what you're saying is that God knows everything that is going to happen, but is powerless to do anything about it? So why would you pray to Him, given He is unable to intervene on your behalf?
    A very good question. And the answer is going to be a bit circular - we pray because Jesus said to do it. He never said "pray and magic silver parachutes full of goodies will fall from the sky, courtesy of your heavenly sponsors." We can surmise from the Bible that prayer is something God wants us to do, but we cannot surmise that prayer is a magical spell kind of thing that makes problems go away.

    My own opinion is that God wants to have a relationship with his creatures, and prayer brings us closer to him. Even if we are to suffer and die, its better for us to do it in the creator's arms rather than apart from him. Maybe thats cynical. But the Bible makes it clear that this is about relationship. In Eden God didn't sit on a throne, he walked with Adam and Eve together (I assume they sat and smoked a pipe together and had animals around them). Thats our model.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    The Bible has the idea of choice spread throughout. It's a hard thing not to constitute the idea of choice in believe as free will. There are many verses in the bible of what can happen to those that reject God (hint he is a jealous God). Free will is imbedded in Christian religious philosophy when you are given the ability to choice Christ or not. The concept of the Holy Trinity in not in the bible yet it is the focal point of 99% of Christianity.

    In Isaiah God says he is the one that does all things, that he is the light and the dark that he brings the best of time and he brings the worst of times. The Bible does not only give God omniscience he is given omnipotence so the comparison of Phil is a little off as God is can do more than squat about it. No where in the Bible does it say that God in uncapable to act in fact it is quite the contrary saying so in God's own words. And if there is one thing that God cannot do according to the bible is lie.
    Personally I see that as God taking blame for the world. Its like a parent who sees their children screwing up. A good parent isn't going to disown the kid and toss them to the wolves. No, a good parent will say "this is on me" and try to help and reconcile.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #8774
    Astonishing Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Personally I see that as God taking blame for the world. Its like a parent who sees their children screwing up. A good parent isn't going to disown the kid and toss them to the wolves. No, a good parent will say "this is on me" and try to help and reconcile.
    So exiling Adam and Eve for disobeying him isn't 'throwing them to the wolves'? And that was their very first mistake.

  15. #8775
    Paranoid Android ChadH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Epicurus has a good response, for certain. And if I had all the answers, I'd give him an logical answer, But this gets into the realm of faith.



    A very good question. And the answer is going to be a bit circular - we pray because Jesus said to do it. He never said "pray and magic silver parachutes full of goodies will fall from the sky, courtesy of your heavenly sponsors." We can surmise from the Bible that prayer is something God wants us to do, but we cannot surmise that prayer is a magical spell kind of thing that makes problems go away.

    My own opinion is that God wants to have a relationship with his creatures, and prayer brings us closer to him. Even if we are to suffer and die, its better for us to do it in the creator's arms rather than apart from him. Maybe thats cynical. But the Bible makes it clear that this is about relationship. In Eden God didn't sit on a throne, he walked with Adam and Eve together (I assume they sat and smoked a pipe together and had animals around them). Thats our model.
    He also appeared as a serpent and tempted Eve. Who else could've been responsible?

    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    So exiling Adam and Eve for disobeying him isn't 'throwing them to the wolves'? And that was their very first mistake.
    Do good parents test their children to determine if they're worthy of love?
    Last edited by ChadH; 06-03-2020 at 03:27 PM.
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