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  1. #901
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Lectionary readings for January 25th, 2016:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psalm 119:89-96
    89
    Your word, Lord, is eternal;
    it stands firm in the heavens.

    90
    Your faithfulness continues through all generations;
    you established the earth, and it endures.

    91
    Your laws endure to this day,
    for all things serve you.

    92
    If your law had not been my delight,
    I would have perished in my affliction.

    93
    I will never forget your precepts,
    for by them you have preserved my life.

    94
    Save me, for I am yours;
    I have sought out your precepts.

    95
    The wicked are waiting to destroy me,
    but I will ponder your statutes.

    96
    To all perfection I see a limit,
    but your commands are boundless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah 36:1-10
    In the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Take a scroll and write on it all the words I have spoken to you concerning Israel, Judah and all the other nations from the time I began speaking to you in the reign of Josiah till now. 3 Perhaps when the people of Judah hear about every disaster I plan to inflict on them, they will each turn from their wicked ways; then I will forgive their wickedness and their sin.”

    4 So Jeremiah called Baruch son of Neriah, and while Jeremiah dictated all the words the Lord had spoken to him, Baruch wrote them on the scroll. 5 Then Jeremiah told Baruch, “I am restricted; I am not allowed to go to the Lord’s temple. 6 So you go to the house of the Lord on a day of fasting and read to the people from the scroll the words of the Lord that you wrote as I dictated. Read them to all the people of Judah who come in from their towns. 7 Perhaps they will bring their petition before the Lord and will each turn from their wicked ways, for the anger and wrath pronounced against this people by the Lord are great.”

    8 Baruch son of Neriah did everything Jeremiah the prophet told him to do; at the Lord’s temple he read the words of the Lord from the scroll. 9 In the ninth month of the fifth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, a time of fasting before the Lord was proclaimed for all the people in Jerusalem and those who had come from the towns of Judah. 10 From the room of Gemariah son of Shaphan the secretary, which was in the upper courtyard at the entrance of the New Gate of the temple, Baruch read to all the people at the Lord’s temple the words of Jeremiah from the scroll.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 14:1-12
    Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    Bold 1. Said every cult member (especially the "inner circle" member) ever. You'd be surprised to know what folks can be made to believe. Also, that again assumes that A. these people exist as understood and B. they believed everything ascribed to them.

    Bold 2. Sure, and again Buddhism's following and Islam's following all based on the truth of their teachings. Wait, how did we logically figure out a way to use Christianity's popularity to equal truth yet not the other popular world religions? Must have missed that.

    Bold 3. Again, still have zero on your side.

    Bold 4. The bible's morality says slavery's A-OK (with caveats), treating your wife as a companion and property of a man is A-OK, stoning folk for sex crimes and other crimes against their god is A-OK, and the eternal torture of the nonbeliever is A-OK, among many other things that modern Christians wouldn't tolerate in their society.

    They're OK with the concept of hell, but in their defense I think most don't really spend any time thinking about what it really means and who gets caught up in that gill net (let alone if the people who "deserve" to be punished really deserve that level of punishment for that long). I'll take evolving societal norms that can be thought about and changed over ancient book of fairy tales that brook no argument (forcing their followers to just outright ignore them until convenient) any day.
    Your 1st point - Look at it this way: Let's say Muhammed is alive today. Let's he admitted to the jihadist that he was a fraud. That he just made everything up. Do you think the jihadists would still continue with suicide missions? I don't think so.

    2nd point - uh i've been saying all along that Christianity's truth is based on evidence. A religion can be popular but doesn't necessarily mean it's true. And geez. Again: Spread of Christianity could have easily stopped by the Jews and Romans. Show the dead body. That's it.

    3rd point - lol. There is evidence. Archeological and literary. You're just too busy overlooking it because you're too dogmatic with your atheism.

    4th point - again: slavery was a means of paying off debts. In the Bible slaves can leave their masters whenever they want. And again: it was the Christians who worked hard to abolish salvery and inequality. MLK Jr was a.. Gasp.. A Christian.

  3. #903
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetle_booster View Post
    4th point - again: slavery was a means of paying off debts. In the Bible slaves can leave their masters whenever they want.
    Let's just assume this was actually true. If the Bible is really the inerrant font of all wisdom, couldn't God have come up with a better solution to being in debt than slavery? I mean, couldn't an omniscient omnipotent divine being come up with some generous refinancing options?

  4. #904
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwolf View Post
    So what if the supernatural aspects aren't recorded? People still believe it. A document means nothing. Documents can be changed or forged or just disregarded. Like treaties.
    I was trying to separate two debate points. There are those that argue that Jesus is a myth created by Paul and others, so we can look for evidence that a man called Yeshua existed. There is some, outside the Gospels there are two mentions of Yeshua by Romans. So there is support that the man existed. (there are other documents, which are seen by most historians as latter forgeries)
    At the same time there are those that argue since we can show he actually lived, this supports the religious story of the New Testament. It doesn't. There is no outside documentation of any of the miraculous stories in the NT. No reports of a leader with a multitude of followers coming to Jerusalem and being put on trial. Just one mention of that a certain man was crucified. and so on. And in some areas, like the Nativity, the history we know contradicts what is in the Bible.
    So I was trying to differentiate between the debates about Jesus really living.

  5. #905
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Let's just assume this was actually true. If the Bible is really the inerrant font of all wisdom, couldn't God have come up with a better solution to being in debt than slavery? I mean, couldn't an omniscient omnipotent divine being come up with some generous refinancing options?
    The Bible isn't the 'inerrant font of all wisdom,' it's a conversation between God and humanity, warts and all.

    "Satan quotes Scripture as a verbal authority; our Lord meets him with a Scripture by the truth in which he regulates his conduct."

    Christians aren't bound by Paul's opinions on slavery and marriage when they contradict the 'letter of the spirit' and the 'law of liberty' which Paul espoused above all else.

    "But who can discern their own errors?
    Forgive my hidden faults.
    Keep your servant also from willful sins;
    may they not rule over me."

  6. #906
    God Save The Queen! Mia's Avatar
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    Yesterday I was listening to a reading on 1 Cor 13: 4-7 , and although I've heard the passage several times. I was prompted to go and look up notes on it in a study Bible. The author (Donald Stamps) spoke about how those are not just feelings. But actually actions on how to treat people and handle oneself. I am especially struck on verse 7 where it talks about being patient/enduring. Consistency, sticking with it, Patience really is a skill that has to be learned and practiced since it goes against our natural impulses.

    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Let's just assume this was actually true. If the Bible is really the inerrant font of all wisdom, couldn't God have come up with a better solution to being in debt than slavery? I mean, couldn't an omniscient omnipotent divine being come up with some generous refinancing options?
    What does being omniscient and 'omnipotent' have to do with choices that people make?
    Last edited by Mia; 01-25-2016 at 11:39 AM.
    • “Fame is a fools idea of glory. I prefer to merely succeed.”-Jaeger (Altered Carbon)
    • “Raging is my job. It’s hopeless, pointless & exhausting. And the only thing worse would be giving up.”-Seven of Nine
    • “You have the soul of a survivor”.- Girda to Alita (Alita Battle Angel)

  7. #907
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    I'm not sure what you're getting at here. First you cite Bible verses stating that slaves should be obedient and love their masters, then you glorify slave rebellions as honorable and just. You really can't have it both ways here, slavery is slavery, whether they're treated nicely by their masters really shouldn't determine how they're supposed to react.
    First of all, I am not a baptized Christian. I simply research various doctrines, dogmatic teachings, and interpretations of the Bible and share my findings. Second, I don't condone any form of slavery. The fact remains, however, that some institutions of slavery were more preferable than what America instituted when the first African slaves were brought to the North American colony of Jamestown, Virginia, in 1619. Lastly, as for slave rebellions being just and honorable, that depends on your perspective. I've made my feelings quite clear on where I stand. Question is, where do you stand?

  8. #908
    Fantastic Member Red Wolf's Avatar
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    When you lose the rhythm of the drumbeat of god, you are lost from the peace and rhythm of life.

  9. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwolf View Post
    I find the words of that picture insulting to those of faith. I do however, understand how native Americans feel this way. When your out in nature, whether it's a walk in the woods or going camping, I can't help but feel closer to God. But please, do not group people of faith into one category. Thanks

  10. #910
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Many people have a perception or belief that indigenous nations worship "nature" as an end in itself. It's a complete fallacy.

  11. #911
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Not sure just how well known this is, but it's actually the "bible diet" I've had as a guide for the last year or two. Normally the goal is 3 or 4 verses a day and while I only read James 3 today, I wanna get back to making a real thing of that. I would have a solid hour that I didn't interrupt, it was a great start for the day.

    http://www.bethelnp.org/wp-content/u...bible-diet.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    I find the words of that picture insulting to those of faith. I do however, understand how native Americans feel this way. When your out in nature, whether it's a walk in the woods or going camping, I can't help but feel closer to God. But please, do not group people of faith into one category. Thanks
    I dunno if I'm reading it the intended way, but I think someone could use this as a point to contrast regimented "religion" versus free and true faith.

  12. #912
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    The hell doctrine is a profoundly horrifying concept. The prospect of spending an eternity in such a place would scare the...um..."hell"...out of anyone. I read the Divine Comedy. I also read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. Moore's version of hell was even more horrendous. I'm Glad Swampy managed to get Abby out of there--with the help of Deadman, the Phantom Stranger, Spectre, and Etrigan the Demon. Epic story.

  13. #913
    Veteran Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetle_booster View Post
    Your 1st point - Look at it this way: Let's say Muhammed is alive today. Let's he admitted to the jihadist that he was a fraud. That he just made everything up. Do you think the jihadists would still continue with suicide missions? I don't think so.

    2nd point - uh i've been saying all along that Christianity's truth is based on evidence. A religion can be popular but doesn't necessarily mean it's true. And geez. Again: Spread of Christianity could have easily stopped by the Jews and Romans. Show the dead body. That's it.

    3rd point - lol. There is evidence. Archeological and literary. You're just too busy overlooking it because you're too dogmatic with your atheism.

    4th point - again: slavery was a means of paying off debts. In the Bible slaves can leave their masters whenever they want. And again: it was the Christians who worked hard to abolish salvery and inequality. MLK Jr was a.. Gasp.. A Christian.
    1. Let's say Jesus was alive today and admitted he was a fraud. What's the point of this excercise? How's it different from yours? I don't know, please break down how you see it.

    2. That some people followed a particular guy or concept of a guy at least is undeniable. That anything of it beyond that (especially the key to it, that anything supernatural was going on at all) is completely unsupportable. And again if the following means there had to be supernatural stuff going on, you can again say the same for dozens of other religions of large size.

    3. See 1. Or see what you want to see.

    4. Again with the defending slavery. I've made my points on that clear enough, if that's the wall you want to die on feel free.
    Formerly finfangfool

  14. #914
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    Eye for an eye, my man. Didn’t white people have the freedom and the “right” to kill any Africans, to wantonly shoot down an enslaved person, to rape any black woman at will, to sell parents’ children to another plantation against their will, to act like God on earth? Had not thousands of blacks been murdered for trivial reasons? Wouldn’t the havoc and macabre killing of black women and children after the revolt be enough to suggest that the revolt had been justified? Hadn’t whites killed the innocent without remorse? Nat Turner simply responded to centuries of indignities and malicious actions.
    If "eye for an eye" wasn't completely immoral (which it is), the crimes were committed by the grown-ups not the babies. The babies were completely innocent. It was wrong when white people killed innocent black people. It was wrong when Nate Turner killed innocent white people. It is wrong for anyone to kill innocent people. In fact I believe it's wrong to kill anyone (outside of voluntary euthanasia).

    I'm really shocked that I needed to explain that.

  15. #915
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Lectionary readings for January 26th, 2016:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psalm 119:89-96
    89
    Your word, Lord, is eternal;
    it stands firm in the heavens.

    90
    Your faithfulness continues through all generations;
    you established the earth, and it endures.

    91
    Your laws endure to this day,
    for all things serve you.

    92
    If your law had not been my delight,
    I would have perished in my affliction.

    93
    I will never forget your precepts,
    for by them you have preserved my life.

    94
    Save me, for I am yours;
    I have sought out your precepts.

    95
    The wicked are waiting to destroy me,
    but I will ponder your statutes.

    96
    To all perfection I see a limit,
    but your commands are boundless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah 36:11-26
    Jeremiah 36:11-26New International Version (NIV)

    11 When Micaiah son of Gemariah, the son of Shaphan, heard all the words of the Lord from the scroll, 12 he went down to the secretary’s room in the royal palace, where all the officials were sitting: Elishama the secretary, Delaiah son of Shemaiah, Elnathan son of Akbor, Gemariah son of Shaphan, Zedekiah son of Hananiah, and all the other officials. 13 After Micaiah told them everything he had heard Baruch read to the people from the scroll, 14 all the officials sent Jehudi son of Nethaniah, the son of Shelemiah, the son of Cushi, to say to Baruch, “Bring the scroll from which you have read to the people and come.” So Baruch son of Neriah went to them with the scroll in his hand. 15 They said to him, “Sit down, please, and read it to us.”

    So Baruch read it to them. 16 When they heard all these words, they looked at each other in fear and said to Baruch, “We must report all these words to the king.” 17 Then they asked Baruch, “Tell us, how did you come to write all this? Did Jeremiah dictate it?”

    18 “Yes,” Baruch replied, “he dictated all these words to me, and I wrote them in ink on the scroll.”

    19 Then the officials said to Baruch, “You and Jeremiah, go and hide. Don’t let anyone know where you are.”

    20 After they put the scroll in the room of Elishama the secretary, they went to the king in the courtyard and reported everything to him. 21 The king sent Jehudi to get the scroll, and Jehudi brought it from the room of Elishama the secretary and read it to the king and all the officials standing beside him. 22 It was the ninth month and the king was sitting in the winter apartment, with a fire burning in the firepot in front of him. 23 Whenever Jehudi had read three or four columns of the scroll, the king cut them off with a scribe’s knife and threw them into the firepot, until the entire scroll was burned in the fire. 24 The king and all his attendants who heard all these words showed no fear, nor did they tear their clothes. 25 Even though Elnathan, Delaiah and Gemariah urged the king not to burn the scroll, he would not listen to them. 26 Instead, the king commanded Jerahmeel, a son of the king, Seraiah son of Azriel and Shelemiah son of Abdeel to arrest Baruch the scribe and Jeremiah the prophet. But the Lord had hidden them.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Corinthians 7:2-12
    2 Make room for us in your hearts. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one. 3 I do not say this to condemn you; I have said before that you have such a place in our hearts that we would live or die with you. 4 I have spoken to you with great frankness; I take great pride in you. I am greatly encouraged; in all our troubles my joy knows no bounds.

    5 For when we came into Macedonia, we had no rest, but we were harassed at every turn—conflicts on the outside, fears within. 6 But God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7 and not only by his coming but also by the comfort you had given him. He told us about your longing for me, your deep sorrow, your ardent concern for me, so that my joy was greater than ever.

    8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12 So even though I wrote to you, it was neither on account of the one who did the wrong nor on account of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are.
    The last passage from 2 Corinthians offers a compelling counterweight to popular misconceptions about the role guilt plays in Christianity: "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret." And that plays nicely with the first passage, in which the psalmist sees God's law as 'boundless' instead of restrictive.
    Last edited by David Walton; 01-26-2016 at 07:09 AM.

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