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  1. #8581
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Thus we see the problem of using Iron Age texts to have a moral code for the modern World. Saying it it the Objective Truth of God still requires colossal amounts of interpretation. And there is obviously no objectively correct way to do that. So one must make his own way through these questions, whether they are a believer or not.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #8582
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luprki View Post
    Pedophiles could be heterosexual or homosexual. Gender attraction has nothing to do with it.
    Actually most of the cases of pedophiles are heterosexual. Most serial killers too. And dictators. And mass shooters. If there are "deviance" in genetics, statistically it's more likely to be in the male heterosexual gene.
    #FunFacts
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  3. #8583
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    It might have escaped your attention, but in the vast majority of Western civilization, homosexuality is acceptable, so should not the Bible's teaching on homosexuality be similarly modified?

    Others on this thread have said that the Bible is the undiluted word of God and we cannot justify ignoring parts of it by saying it comes from a different time. By that logic, if you believe that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so, then you have to accept that slavery is acceptable (and that you can make people slaves for life and bequeath them to them to your children) for exactly the same reason: the Bible says so.

    But, if you believe you can modify your view on slavery because the Bible was written a long time ago, then why can't you modify your view on homosexuality because the Bible was written a long time ago?
    You obviously can modify your views. Many Christian churches have done that and have gay clergy, gay parishioners, etc. There are Christian churches that entirely cater to gays.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  4. #8584
    Astonishing Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    You obviously can modify your views. Many Christian churches have done that and have gay clergy, gay parishioners, etc. There are Christian churches that entirely cater to gays.
    Indeed. And some of these churches will even perform same sex marriages.

    Yet you continue to state, with absolute certainty, that homosexuality is a sin. So, if you are correct (and you claim the Bible is on your side), then these churches are actively encouraging sin. Are they just sadly misguided, or are they heretics deliberately spitting in the face of God?

    I'm sure the ministers would claim they are Christians. So who is right?

  5. #8585
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    Indeed. And some of these churches will even perform same sex marriages.

    Yet you continue to state, with absolute certainty, that homosexuality is a sin. So, if you are correct (and you claim the Bible is on your side), then these churches are actively encouraging sin. Are they just sadly misguided, or are they heretics deliberately spitting in the face of God?

    I'm sure the ministers would claim they are Christians. So who is right?
    Because homosexuality is not a sin. Where does it say in the bible that man can not love another man, or that a woman can not love another woman. No where. It says that act of homosexual sex is a sin but not homosexuality. It also says that divorce for any reason other than sexual immorality and re marrying some one else is a sin. Some churches accept one but not the other be cause one is an "abomination" and the other is the way things are. If a church preforms a person's 2nd or even 3rd marriage would they be actively encouraging sin as well?
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  6. #8586
    Incredible Member luprki's Avatar
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    Former Congressman Republican Aaron Schock, one of the biggest homophobes when he was in Congress came out as gay today at the age of 38. He was brought up in a fundamentalist house that hates gay. After recently coming out to his family they disowned him and was trying to get him to go to orientation conversion treatment. He felt pressured from his family and his party to vote against gay causes while in Congress. He finally told the world today who he is and is hoping one day that his family will accept him as a gay man.
    I feel bad for him, growing up in a household where he was constantly reminded that he was an abomination, he felt pressure to denounce gays and felt he had to hide who he was to stay in good standing with his family and party.
    This is what false religious teaching does to gays and their families.
    Last edited by luprki; 03-05-2020 at 10:58 AM.

  7. #8587
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    Indeed. And some of these churches will even perform same sex marriages.

    Yet you continue to state, with absolute certainty, that homosexuality is a sin. So, if you are correct (and you claim the Bible is on your side), then these churches are actively encouraging sin. Are they just sadly misguided, or are they heretics deliberately spitting in the face of God?

    I'm sure the ministers would claim they are Christians. So who is right?
    Well I'm not worried about whether or not I'm correct. This is a thread about the Bible, so I'm discussing my views on it. Its my opinion. I feel pretty confident about it, but not 100 percent confident. But either way, being correct or not doesn't make me a Christian. Believing in Jesus and being saved is what makes me a Christian. Other than that, I try not to judge other people based on my own beliefs. All I can do, really.

    When I was in college, a friend of mine who was a lesbian partnered (marriage wasn't legal in California at the time) with a Christian pastor at a church called Anchor Christian Church. It was a church catering to gays specifically. They definitely weren't spitting in the face of God. So of the two options you gave me, I'd say they were misguided.

    A guy who used to live across the street from me, he and his male partner, and I spoke about this subject one time. He said something along the lines of "if being gay is a sin, then I ask forgiveness from God every day." Its stuck with me. He was as uncertain as I was about the whole issue.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  8. #8588
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    There are no false religious teachings, all are equally valid or invalid, since they are all based on Faith. Of course in reality, since all religions contradict each other, only one (or none) can be true.

    I think most people try their best to find the right one to live a good life. Unfortunately there are those that are so sure they are right that they find condemning others to be their right.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  9. #8589
    Astonishing Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Because homosexuality is not a sin. Where does it say in the bible that man can not love another man, or that a woman can not love another woman. No where. It says that act of homosexual sex is a sin but not homosexuality. It also says that divorce for any reason other than sexual immorality and re marrying some one else is a sin. Some churches accept one but not the other be cause one is an "abomination" and the other is the way things are. If a church preforms a person's 2nd or even 3rd marriage would they be actively encouraging sin as well?
    Personally I do not believe that homosexuality or divorce are sins. I was merely trying to make a point. many on this thread have claimed that homosexuality is sin, and cited the Bible as their basis for this belief. If they truly believe this, then they have to believe that Christian denominations who condone homosexuality are misguided, or deliberately going against the so-called 'word of God'.

    Others on this thread have stated that the Bible is the literal word of God and everything in it is literally true, and that you do not get to pick and chose which parts you accept. If that is the case then they believe that is acceptable to enslave anyone who is not an Israelite. They should also not have a haircut with rounded edges, wear gold or pearls, eat shellfish, and any number of other things. How many fundamentalists obey all of the strictures in Leviticus?

    Times change, and if you believe that the Bible's rules on slavery are not applicable to modern society, why should its views on homosexuality?

  10. #8590
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    So our church live streamed this past week.

    Our minister did a great job with a new format and I applaud her for making the difficult choice. These are strange times we live in but it's really important to keep our most vulnerable population safe and not overload the health system all at once.

    Going by the Old Testament, God is not only fine with but encourages social distancing measures when appropriate.

  11. #8591
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    We had a worship service but had the following precautions in place:
    • During the worship service, the congregation will spread out through the entire sanctuary space (including the chairs at the back of the church). Families can sit together, but unrelated congregants must try to keep at least 6 feet apart.
    • If you are over 60, or have a medical condition, please pray about attending large church gatherings and know the risk before joining communal worship. We suggest you do not attend if you are a part of a high risk group.
    • Mt. Calvary services will become a hand-shake and hug free zone until at least March 31.
    • We ask that all congregants wash hands before and after church.
    • We ask all those who feel sick or show flu-like symptoms to stay home. The sermons will be on line to watch and we are looking ways to web cast the worship service.

    Pastor gave out his personal cell phone and he modified his planned sermon to discuss how to be brave and still serve other sin love during these days.

    A little devotion that was sent out to the congregation:

    Do Not Be Anxious About Anything
    One Minute for March 2020
    03/10/2020 Rev. Ron Rehrer

    “Do not be anxious about anything”

    Saint Paul wrote the above words to the Philippians (4:6). These are important words for us in the face of growing anxiety, fear and panic as we learn more about the corona virus spreading throughout the United States. This week (March 1-7) we have learned that financial markets have plummeted; airlines and cruise lines are at risk; sports events have been curtailed; large conventions and music venues have been canceled; people cannot find hand sanitizers on empty shelves due to panic buying; and there are many more signs of fear and anxiety.

    On the other hand, millions are washing their hands more frequently, cleaning surfaces diligently, and practicing greater hygiene. Children and adults are doing “fist bumps” or “elbow bumps” instead of shaking hands or hugging their friends. Also, media reports say the CDC and other private and public laboratories are creating test kits for doctors, hospitals, nursing homes, and other medical facilities.

    “Do not be anxious about anything.” But it is hard not to be anxious when news broadcasts lead with updates on the virus and its national and international impacts. Yet Saint Paul also adds, “but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.” St. Paul knew dangers and trials in his own life, and he took his concerns before God.

    To the Corinthians he wrote: “…three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked; I spent a night and a day in the open sea.” (2 Corinthians 11:25)

    Saint Paul presented his requests to God. He urges us to do the same. He knew he was in God’s hands, no matter what he encountered.

    The Governor of Washington urged the citizens of his state to remain calm even as the outbreak of the virus snuffed out the lives of elderly citizens in his state. The Mayor of New York City told his citizens to remain calm and use their heads instead of their emotions as they continue to struggle forward in the fight against the outbreak.

    In Christ we wrap ourselves in the assurance of God’s Son that whatever befalls us we know we can count on God’s deliverance and salvation in this life and in the life to come. In the death of Jesus and our belief in His resurrection we can say with Saint Paul that we can be content with whatever happens.

    Saint Paul wrote these words, “In my frequent journeys I have been in danger from rivers and from bandits, in danger from my countrymen and from the Gentiles; in danger in the city and in the country, in danger on the sea and among false brothers. In labor and toil and without sleep; in hunger and thirst and often without food; in the cold and exposure, and from these external trials, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.” (2 Corinthians 11:26-28)

    “Do not be anxious about anything.” God will be with us. We can count on His promises. Remain calm and pray for first responders, medical workers, and all of those touched by this crisis.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  12. #8592
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Those are decent measures and it's a very good devotional.

    That said, even with all those precautionary measures in place I think the best course right now is to cancel in-person church services for at least the next two weeks. The official recommendation is to avoid gatherings of more than 10 people. It isn't just an issue of at-risk individuals attending services--young healthy people who might even be asymptomatic can spread the virus to others who will then pass it on to their elderly or immunocompromised family and friends.

  13. #8593
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    To be honest, the more I think about it, the more problematic half-measures can become if people think they're sufficient.

    I understand that people really want to meet in person for church services but we're at a point where social distancing is necessary to save lives.

    We all have the opportunity to be heroes to the people who need us the most right now, the elderly and immunocompromised. Sometimes that means putting our own wants and needs aside and trying to do things a different way for a while, even if it's not our personal preference.

  14. #8594
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    To be honest, the more I think about it, the more problematic half-measures can become if people think they're sufficient.

    I understand that people really want to meet in person for church services but we're at a point where social distancing is necessary to save lives.

    We all have the opportunity to be heroes to the people who need us the most right now, the elderly and immunocompromised. Sometimes that means putting our own wants and needs aside and trying to do things a different way for a while, even if it's not our personal preference.
    Those measures might be changing. That was from last Friday and things are still developing. So I do expect services to get cancelled, actually.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  15. #8595
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Those measures might be changing. That was from last Friday and things are still developing. So I do expect services to get cancelled, actually.
    Probably, given the spike in cases. Things are changing rapidly. Restaurants voluntarily ending dine-in eating, things along those lines.

    Sorry if I sounded judgmental. It's great your church is taking the issue on rather than burying their head in the sand. I tend to think all live services should be shut down for the next several weeks, but as always, it's a balancing act. Meeting people's needs and serving the larger public interest. These are hard times with difficult choices to be made.

    I think by the time this crisis is passed, it will fundamentally change the way a lot of services are provided.

    Stay well, my friend!

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