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  1. #7996
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Yes, I realize that all living organisms are related, I was just trying to make it sound more absurd to get my point across. And I don't see how I'm the one being rude and insulting when the poster I'm responding to was suggesting that I was subhuman for not believing in God. I understand wanting to find compromise solutions and respecting the beliefs of others, but why are we always held to these standard while religious fanatics never are?
    I don't for a second expect you to respect my beliefs. I punched back not because you don't believe in God but because you were so glib and condescending about it. This is what Christians frequently come up against. We're taught that we're supposed to be passive and "turn the other cheek" while our opponents who at best adhere to a subjective moral standard often don't have any compunction about unloading on us with both barrels. But turning the other cheek doesn't mean we have to roll over on our principles and beliefs so when one of us punches back everybody clutches their pearls and exclaims "but I thought you were a Christian" between shocked gasps. Not being willing to capitulate or compromise our beliefs doesn't make us religious fanatics.

  2. #7997
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    It's not Jesus' stance on divorce per se, rather the biblical framework he uses when discussing the subject. When asked, Jesus says "haven't you read that in the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”If Genesis was indeed allegorical, Jesus wouldn't have used this phrasing. In this passage, Jesus shows that he has a literal interpretation of the Genesis text. If you take the idea of the Theistic Evolutionist, then Jesus wouldn't have said that the Creator made them (male and female) "in the beginning".
    Why? I'm not a fundamentalist, but I don't qualify every single biblical quotation. Jesus is pointing to the universal truth expressed here. God created humanity, and humans are obligated to honor the covenants they make with their life partners.

    God quite often met the people of Israel where he found them. Issues like divorce, polygamy, and slavery were all issues that were addressed under Mosaic law. And while God didn't abolish such things, he pointed the people away from these things.
    If that's what you believe, why wouldn't you just as easily argue that God was moving them away from homophobia? Your interpretation seems tailored to retroactively apologize for slavery and promote anti-LGBT policies. Slavery was never okay, and neither is discrimination against the LGBT community.

    And while Jesus didn't see Moses' teachings on divorce as divine or infallible, he does see gender as binary and assigned by God as well as the institution of marriage created by God to be between a man and woman. So there's a lot you can take away from that passage beyond just what Jesus has to say about divorce.
    People often use mankind in a universal sense when they really mean humankind. Jesus wouldn't be likely to mention gay marriage or transgender issues since neither of them were on the public radar at the time. In his human form, the possibility might never even have occurred to him. But that doesn't mean that, speaking through the Holy Spirit, he didn't express broader universal truths which can as easily be applied to homosexual marriages as heterosexual ones. Honor the covenant you made with your life partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    I don't for a second expect you to respect my beliefs. I punched back not because you don't believe in God but because you were so glib and condescending about it. This is what Christians frequently come up against. We're taught that we're supposed to be passive and "turn the other cheek" while our opponents who at best adhere to a subjective moral standard often don't have any compunction about unloading on us with both barrels. But turning the other cheek doesn't mean we have to roll over on our principles and beliefs so when one of us punches back everybody clutches their pearls and exclaims "but I thought you were a Christian" between shocked gasps. Not being willing to capitulate or compromise our beliefs doesn't make us religious fanatics.
    Why be eager to take offense? I don't think PwrdOn crossed a line with his remark. Christians are a majority in America, and to hear some talk, you'd think we were a persecuted minority. The early Christians won people over to the faith by being Christians, not 'punching back.'

    And there's a difference between refusing to compromise one's beliefs and being uncompromising. When you cross from one to the other, there is a risk of fanaticism. The religious leaders of Jesus' day prided themselves on refusing to compromise as well, so much so they crucified Jesus for challenging their preconceived notions.

    Steel your heart against every perceived 'heretic,' and you might find you've shut God out as well.
    Last edited by David Walton; 06-13-2019 at 08:22 AM.

  3. #7998
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    We need "like" buttons in our forums.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #7999
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    We need "like" buttons in our forums.
    I agree, a big thumbs up from me to David Walton for whatever it's worth!

  5. #8000
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's Devotion:

    DO NOT PURSUE MATERIAL TREASURES
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-13/
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  6. #8001
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's Devotion:

    DO NOT TREASURE WORTHLESS IDOLS
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-14/
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  7. #8002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    So with all the evidence you really don't think that its at lest plausible? There are those that believe in Darwinism and are also follow the Abrahamic religions. I'm just saying that Jesus spoke in parables, you don't you think there is a chance that Genesis could be a allegory or the like?
    The thing about the Genesis record and evolution is that the order in which creation happened doesn't fit with the order in which species would have evolved and various phenomena would have happened. It almost, kinda does if you squint.

    But thats ok. Genesis is connoting a truth, while Evolution is communicating a theory. Neither is a fact - something that can be empirically proven. But Evolution is based upon fact, whereas Genesis is not. This probably makes me sound like a heretic to Christians and an ignorant savage to scientists. But look, the two ideas have completely different aims. The first, the Genesis account, is stating God's message to us about the beginnings of all the earth ipso facto because the Bible is the inspired Word of God. The second idea necessarily tosses out the notion of just accepting something and rather uses the Scientific Method to describe an (ever-evolving) theory that is based on a collection of facts which have been recorded and can be duplicated.

    Can one harmonize the two concepts? I believe so, personally. All I know is that a lot of the time, scripture speaks reality to those who follow it in faith.

    For instance, a study was done at Notre Dame. Participants were asked to not tell any lies for 10 weeks. Scary thought for some of us! People who did it became healthier mentally and physically. Scriptural echo of the findings - A peaceful heart leads to a healthy body (Proverbs)

    Here is a small article on the study, and some other thoughts on what we are talking about here: https://emilytomko.com/the-harmony-o...and-scripture/

    Evolutionary Theory has been proposed and accepted by science. All that is happening now is that the theory is being refined as more data comes in. No one is throwing out the theory without some kind of cataclysmic new information (aliens show up and prove they did it all, for instance).

    Personally, just because I know everyone wants to know haha, I would say that if we all came from monkeys and amoebas and various forms of proto-plasms doing the nasty - God could have still overseen that process and it could still be consistent with scripture. My faith in God does not require me to be able to explain all the details.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 06-14-2019 at 04:36 PM.
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  8. #8003
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Really need that "Like" button.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  9. #8004
    Astonishing Member Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon's Avatar
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    I don't understand why persons miss why God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son.

    It was a freakin test to see if Abraham feared the Lord, and he was successful or passed.
    The intention is outright stated by the Angel that intervenes before the violence happens which is why it astounds me persons ask the question why did God want Abraham to sacrifice his son.

  10. #8005
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon View Post
    I don't understand why persons miss why God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son.

    It was a freakin test to see if Abraham feared the Lord, and he was successful or passed.
    The intention is outright stated by the Angel that intervenes before the violence happens which is why it astounds me persons ask the question why did God want Abraham to sacrifice his son.
    Yeah, it's very straightforward that it was a test of his faith. Not sure why someone would think otherwise.
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  11. #8006
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's Devotion:

    THE TREASURE OF WISDOM
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-16/
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  12. #8007
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon View Post
    I don't understand why persons miss why God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son.

    It was a freakin test to see if Abraham feared the Lord, and he was successful or passed.
    The intention is outright stated by the Angel that intervenes before the violence happens which is why it astounds me persons ask the question why did God want Abraham to sacrifice his son.
    I don't see people mistaking why. We just see it as a very cruel act. God is omniscient, so he would know what is in Abrham's mind and heart anyway. And to put him through this torture is just incredibly cruel. God asks him to murder the son he loves more than anything. I can't imagine how devasting this was to Abraham. That God stopped him before the act is not an excuse. It is an act that someone like Kim Jon Il or Idi Amin would do.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 06-17-2019 at 06:39 AM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  13. #8008
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon View Post
    I don't understand why persons miss why God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son.

    It was a freakin test to see if Abraham feared the Lord, and he was successful or passed.
    The intention is outright stated by the Angel that intervenes before the violence happens which is why it astounds me persons ask the question why did God want Abraham to sacrifice his son.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Yeah, it's very straightforward that it was a test of his faith. Not sure why someone would think otherwise.
    I'll be honest, I find it be a really problematic narrative. If you were to tell the exact same story using a pagan god and hero, no one here would have any problem condemning Abraham's actions. If there was a story on the nightly news about a guy who tied his kid to railroad tracks because the voice of Apollo told him to, we'd all be horrified. Child abuse and murder is never justifiable.

    I think the Bible is inspired but not infallible, and it's passed down to people and through people, complete with their biases and struggles. The account does represent a step forward in theology because God didn't actually require Isaac's death, a contrast to the pagan cults that did call for human sacrifice. But it's only a step, not the end of the journey.
    Last edited by David Walton; 06-17-2019 at 06:46 AM.

  14. #8009
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I'll be honest, I find it be a really problematic narrative. If you were to tell the exact same story using a pagan god and hero, no one here would have any problem condemning Abraham's actions. If there was a story on the nightly news about a guy who tied his kid to railroad tracks because the voice of Apollo told him to, we'd all be horrified. Child abuse and murder is never justifiable.

    I think the Bible is inspired but not infallible, and it's passed down to people and through people, complete with their biases and struggles. The account does represent a step forward in theology because God didn't actually require Isaac's death, a contrast to the pagan cults that did call for human sacrifice. But it's only a step, not the end of the journey.
    It isn't stated in the bible and you can theorize what exactly happened, but IMO, I believe that Abraham had such great faith in God that if he did kill Issac, God would bring him back to life. The test therefore was could he still sacrifice his son not knowing for sure what was going to happen. And he passed the test. Even if he thought God would bring him back to life, it would still be incredibly hard to kill your son. I couldn't imagine.
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  15. #8010
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's Devotion:

    THE TREASURE OF GOD’S WORD
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-17/
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

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