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  1. #7966
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    That's a very circular argument.

    X couldn't spring from nothing, so Y must have created it.

    The immediate question then is "where did Y spring from?".
    The answer is God always existed. But then it is admitted that something can exist without a cause. But the thing is no one is saying the Universe did not have a cause, there are theories about our Universe arising from "nothing" as there are other theories about the pre-Big Bang Universe. These are based on what we know about the Universe and the math of the physics. We just don't have enough data and evidence to confirm any of that. Which is not to say we won't in the future. Science has always had theories that took time for the evidence to emerge. From Relativity to more recently the Higgs Boson.

    Again, one can believe in a God and still accept modern Science. But it is a mistake to think anything in Science is evidence for a God's existence.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 06-04-2019 at 05:48 AM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #7967
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    I love that.

    Someone starts off believing one thing, researches it and changes their mind based on the evidence. That's true science at work!
    Sadly cosmology is heading toward more elegance of thought than the presentation of testable evidence. We are at the edge of a dark age of science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    The answer is God always existed. But then it is admitted that something can exist without a cause. But the thing is no one is saying the Universe did not have a cause, there are theories about our Universe arising from "nothing" as there are other theories about the pre-Big Bang Universe. These are based on what we know about the Universe and the math of the physics. We just don't have enough data and evidence to confirm any of that. Which is not to say we won't in the future. Science has always had theories that took time for the evidence to emerge. From Relativity to more recently the Higgs Boson.

    Again, one can believe in a God and still accept modern Science. But it is a mistake to think anything in Science is evidence for a God's existence.
    First person to try and tackle this was Bishop Augustine of Hippo in Book XI of the Confessions with one of the fist concepts of time not being infinite but having a "beginning". Dude was hinting at General Relativity 1,300 years before Einstein. And it is more that something can exist outside of space-time rather than without cause. Basically put God couldn't have always existed because out side of time there is no always.

    The same argument can be made with theoretical physicist using things like multiverse and quantum gravity in their theories, throwing away Occam’s razor gives way to people adding God in the equation.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 06-04-2019 at 01:26 PM.
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  3. #7968
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's Devotion:

    TREASURES CAN TAKE MANY FORMS
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-05/
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  4. #7969
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's Devotion:

    ISRAEL AS GOD’S TREASURED POSSESSION
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-06/
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  5. #7970
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Sadly cosmology is heading toward more elegance of thought than the presentation of testable evidence. We are at the edge of a dark age of science.



    First person to try and tackle this was Bishop Augustine of Hippo in Book XI of the Confessions with one of the fist concepts of time not being infinite but having a "beginning". Dude was hinting at General Relativity 1,300 years before Einstein. And it is more that something can exist outside of space-time rather than without cause. Basically put God couldn't have always existed because out side of time there is no always.

    The same argument can be made with theoretical physicist using things like multiverse and quantum gravity in their theories, throwing away Occam’s razor gives way to people adding God in the equation.
    Augustine taught gnosticism. Unorthodox false doctrine of the natural inability of man. He did not follow the teachings of the apostles from the early church. As far as Occam’s Razor goes, it's an adopted principle that leans toward the atheistic side of the choice to believe in a God.

    This world is under Satan's deceptions. He uses people and things to deceive other people in order to get someone to deny or not believe in Jesus, the true God. He even makes people think he doesn't exist. There to explain things away and de-power God. He even pretends to be the good guy, like Matthew 7:15 says. Even posing and/or pretending to be Christian or believing in God while engaging in shenanigans. To spread false doctrines or do other poisonous activity. To deny supernatural and paranormal realities. To deny people of the more fascinating things about God. Brainwashing the populace so that people drift away from the one true God. Those who engage in such deceit are doing the Devi's bidding. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled is making people think he doesn't exist. Therefor, making people not believe in a God who wants to save people from the way to destruction either.

    In the book of Matthew it says you cannot serve two masters. You either follow the God in heaven or the God of this world who is Satan, also known as Lucifer. The God in heaven exists outside of time and beyond human understanding. He's an intelligent and supernatural being.

  6. #7971
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    For me, the most important way to harmonize science and Biblical scripture is found by realizing that many notable scientists were devout Christians. If they can do it, so can you. So can I.

    Its very important to remember the differences between science and Biblical thought.

    Scientific Method:

    -Observation
    -Research
    -Hypothesis
    -Experiment (Methods, Data Collection)
    -Analysis
    -Conclusion/New Hypothesis

    Scriptural Method:

    -Sola Gratia
    -Sola Fide
    -Sola Christus
    -Sola Scriptura
    -Sola Deo Gloria

    The first is about facts, the second is about truth. The first is about developing a multi-faceted description of reality, the second is about figuring out our place in that reality. The first is dispassionate, the second is compassionate. The first is about phenomena, the second is about beliefs.

    They're pretty separate ideas. Where people get caught up is when they mistake science for talking about absolutes. That is not its nature.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 06-06-2019 at 04:27 PM.
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  7. #7972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    For me, the most important way to harmonize science and Biblical scripture is found by realizing that many notable scientists were devout Christians. If they can do it, so can you. So can I.

    Its very important to remember the differences between science and Biblical thought.

    Scientific Method:

    -Observation
    -Research
    -Hypothesis
    -Experiment (Methods, Data Collection)
    -Analysis
    -Conclusion/New Hypothesis

    Scriptural Method:

    -Sola Gratia
    -Sola Fide
    -Sola Christus
    -Sola Scriptura
    -Sola Deo Gloria

    The first is about facts, the second is about truth. The first is about developing a multi-faceted description of reality, the second is about figuring out our place in that reality. The first is dispassionate, the second is compassionate. The first is about phenomena, the second is about beliefs.

    They're pretty separate ideas. Where people get caught up is when they mistake science for talking about absolutes. That is not its nature.
    The first is a sound and practical basis for exploring new ideas, the second is just a random selection of nonsense ideas that you threw some fancy Latin on to make it seem less absurd.

  8. #7973
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The first is a sound and practical basis for exploring new ideas, the second is just a random selection of nonsense ideas that you threw some fancy Latin on to make it seem less absurd.
    The five Sola have been around for a bit, or at lest three of them have, Scott didn't just throw some fancy Latin in it. And I see his point, as I always say the bible is not a science text book and to use it as such is completely wrong. His statement actually is very reasonable, that one is about the relationship with the natural world and the other is about a relationship with the a spiritual belief. They are two completely different systems and treated as such.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  9. #7974
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The first is a sound and practical basis for exploring new ideas, the second is just a random selection of nonsense ideas that you threw some fancy Latin on to make it seem less absurd.
    You can choose not to believe if you want. But I don't see why you need to be insulting about my beliefs in the process. Perhaps you need a hug?
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  10. #7975
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    The five Sola have been around for a bit, or at lest three of them have, Scott didn't just throw some fancy Latin in it. And I see his point, as I always say the bible is not a science text book and to use it as such is completely wrong. His statement actually is very reasonable, that one is about the relationship with the natural world and the other is about a relationship with the a spiritual belief. They are two completely different systems and treated as such.
    But the five solae were not some fundamental component of Christian belief but specifically a Protestant reaction against 16th century Catholicism and its more ritualized belief system. These days, nobody is really having that debate anymore and Catholics and Protestants usually find themselves allied in pushing their backwards values onto the rest of society, whether or not they have any precedent in the Bible. Trying to paint the Bible just as a "spiritual guide" is infusing it with a lot of that open-ended mysticism of eastern religions like Buddhism or yoga, which is at best highly disingenuous because Christianity has always relied on communal pressure and heavy handed enforcement of its rules to keep people in line, it certainly isn't a religion where people are free to explore and define their own relationship with God as they see fit.

  11. #7976
    WAKANDA FOREVER! Falcon16's Avatar
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    I don't really know. I just like to read it every once in a while.

  12. #7977
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The first is a sound and practical basis for exploring new ideas, the second is just a random selection of nonsense ideas that you threw some fancy Latin on to make it seem less absurd.
    That's kind of rude dude
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  13. #7978
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's Devotion:

    GUARDING HIS TREASURED POSSESSION
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-08/
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

  14. #7979
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    But the five solae were not some fundamental component of Christian belief but specifically a Protestant reaction against 16th century Catholicism and its more ritualized belief system. These days, nobody is really having that debate anymore and Catholics and Protestants usually find themselves allied in pushing their backwards values onto the rest of society, whether or not they have any precedent in the Bible. Trying to paint the Bible just as a "spiritual guide" is infusing it with a lot of that open-ended mysticism of eastern religions like Buddhism or yoga, which is at best highly disingenuous because Christianity has always relied on communal pressure and heavy handed enforcement of its rules to keep people in line, it certainly isn't a religion where people are free to explore and define their own relationship with God as they see fit.
    Do you attack other religions with as much zeal, or do you only hate one?
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 06-11-2019 at 02:25 PM.
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  15. #7980
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's Devotion:

    DISHONEST TREASURE
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-10/
    But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.--Isaiah 40:31

    “Everything’s impossible until somebody does it.” – Batman

    “You want weapons? We're in a library! Books! Best weapons in the world!"--The Doctor

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