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  1. #5776
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    There was another commission first, though. In Matthew, we find this in chapter 10, where we're told:

    These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

    The people he instructs them to reach out to are exclusive.



    Only it is true. Does your translation of Matthew, for example, say something different?



    'Only' (and 'but') is not the same as 'first'.

    Matthew 15:24

    New International Version
    He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

    New Living Translation
    Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."

    English Standard Version
    He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

    Berean Study Bible
    He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    Berean Literal Bible
    And answering He said, "I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    New American Standard Bible
    But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    King James Bible
    But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



    He never says anything like that, though, not until the purported 'Great Commission'. Hence the question and my references to what we are told both within the Bible and through historical record - the apostles did not actively preach to the Gentiles. So did he really gather the 12 and tell them to preach only to the tribes of Israel only to then regather them and tell them to start preaching to everyone... only for them to not heed his instruction?
    He said all of this because He was sent to preach to the Jews first. In Matthew 23:37 He laments how He wished Israel would have accepted Him as their Savior.

    But there are times when Jesus travels to Samaria and other regions close to Israel that were gentiles.



    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    How would one who was accepting of him be 'spiritually unclean'? Ritually unclean, sure, but she was the most accepting person there and he clearly knew that. She believed him to be the Son of David, the Messiah, etc, and you've been going on about how belief in Christ being your Lord is what saves you, so how is this woman 'spiritually unclean'... and you're not?
    Are you asking me personally? I was spiritually unclean. We all are unless we have faith in Christ. It's called being sinners. But my sins have been wiped clean by Jesus' sacrifice.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boys shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.--Batman

    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they dont alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.--The Doctor

  2. #5777
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Have you ever wondered what the 'other Gospel' he's referring to was/is? Who it was who was preaching something contrary to Paul's teachings? (verses 6 to 9)

    For me, angels cannot and will not do anything contrary to God's instruction/permission etc, so Paul's cursing of one (potentially) just comes across as hyperbole.
    He's referring to those that were perverting the true gospel and twisting it to fit their own desires.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boys shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.--Batman

    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they dont alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.--The Doctor

  3. #5778
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    AN EVANGELIST’S HEART: COMPASSION
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/15/
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boys shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.--Batman

    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they dont alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.--The Doctor

  4. #5779
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    There was another commission first, though. In Matthew, we find this in chapter 10, where we're told:

    These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

    The people he instructs them to reach out to are exclusive.
    Okay, so I read the Bible and other religious text as outsider as not apart of any religion (I don't do it to pick it apart all religion genuinely interest me). I have very devout religious friends of many different faiths from all over the world that I speak to on the different aspect and details pertaining to religious questions.

    Here is my (as an outsider) take on the Great Commission and what was before it.
    Yes he was there for only Israel. They were the chosen people of God. Chosen for what was my question. And I was led all over the bible old and new testament and many long conversations (I don't have my notes so I'm not gonna give chapter and verse so pleas forgive me). So in the book of Daniel it says something and I'm gonna paraphrase (and all other quotes too) "That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve him (God)." Zechariah: "of a king who would speak peace to the nations, and whose dominion would be from sea to sea". Then in the book its Malachi "People (Israel) who were supposed to exalt God and cause him to be reverenced and worshiped among the nations of the world, have failed to do so." There is sounds like Israel is not doing it's duty which is even said before in Ezekiel where "The Son of Man is to be sent to be the watcher over the rebellious people of Israel." Among other things Israel was "chosen" to spread the word of God.

    So he was there only for Israel to push them back to that chosen path. His interactions with the Gentiles were very positive, more positive than with the Hebrews in many cases. I think it was Luke where he healed 9 or 10 lepers and the only one that returned to thank him was was a Gentile, and he acknowledged that fact. The centurion (Roman easily certain) he marveled and was angry at how the Gentile leader showed more faith than any of the Hebrews with him. He even said that the rank of the chosen would be taken away from Israel and given to another that would do a better job (I think that is also in Mathew) that is also where he said that the gospel was to be witness to all nations. None of that sound to be God is only for Israel. But it would seem that Jesus was to not go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans until God's chosen accepted their role. Israel was the problem child that needed the most attention. At the "another commission" as his time was growing short the lost sheep of Israel needed to be lead back on their path so he sent his disciples to them. He also told them that he was sending them to the wolves. He once pointed out the prophets would be more welcomed by foreigners then by their own people.

    The woman at the well. As much as I respect to The Whovian and his take on the Bible I believe he got it wrong here. There was noting there about being unclean. When the ones he was with him asked him to send her away that was a reminder of why he was there Only for Israel as they needed his guidance for their chosen task. His next questing is of children and dogs (or as I'm told pets). Her reply, (not the ones that he is with mind you) is of Masters and crumbs. The people of Israel are children still who need to be fed the bread (wisdom) so that they may learn to care for (tech them of God) the dogs (Gentiles). If the food is taking from the children and given to the pets the children will never learn the task they were chosen for. The woman's reply of a Masters is - all things through the Lord as even crumbs can be seen as a blessing- That being the faith she was rewarded for.
    She address as him as Lord and Son of David she saw him for who he is and what he can do, accepts him for it. And is noted by him for having "great faith"... I don't think he saw her as unclean from what I've read or been told. It would be out of character for him think of her as unclean. He clearly states what makes a person unclean in Mark and she has none of those aspects. She has shown him respect, more than many of the Hebrews have.

    The later Great Commission met with hesitation because of bias and fear, with occupations from the time of the Babylonian exile on, foreigners were greatly mistrusted and feared but the word was spread outside of Israel so seems to have worked is some circles.

    Do I believe all of this? No. Its a story, but the story connects. Like Thomas Jefferson I believe there is wise teaching in the morals of Jesus Christ... Its the super natural element that gets in the way of the teachings. But from my understanding yes Jesus was there only to teach Israel. Only, so that they could teach the other nations as it would seem they were "chosen" to do.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  5. #5780
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    What book of the bible are you reading? I like to read chapters from one book of the Old Testament and New Testament at the same time. I'm currently reading Habakkuk and Hebrews.
    I read a proverb or 2 a day. I enjoy the book of kings and really a lot of the old testament reads like a mafia movie or game of thrones. I'm glad to be able to have reached the point were I'm able to
    read it for both faith strengthening, and because the stories are pretty bad ass.

    Also. I'm impressed with how brave you are to post this. So much hate of Christianity, in lieu of other things... Thank you for asking.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  6. #5781
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I read a proverb or 2 a day. I enjoy the book of kings and really a lot of the old testament reads like a mafia movie or game of thrones. I'm glad to be able to have reached the point were I'm able to
    read it for both faith strengthening, and because the stories are pretty bad ass.

    Also. I'm impressed with how brave you are to post this. So much hate of Christianity, in lieu of other things... Thank you for asking.
    Thank you for sharing and being a part of this thread
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boys shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.--Batman

    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they dont alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.--The Doctor

  7. #5782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post

    The woman at the well. As much as I respect to The Whovian and his take on the Bible I believe he got it wrong here. There was noting there about being unclean.
    That wasn't in reference to the woman at the well. It was in regards to the Canaanite woman from Matthew 15:21-28

    21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

    22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

    23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

    26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

    27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

    28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

    Notice who Jesus was talking about in this story. The "children" were the Jews (who had the right of hearing the gospel first), and the "dogs" (or unclean people) were the gentiles (anyone not a Jew).

    Jesus' reaction to the woman proves that the gospel was always meant to be shared with the gentiles, but only after the Jews heard it first.

    As far as the "unclean" part goes. This is from the New Bible Commentary (part in bold from me)

    15:21–28 A Gentile woman’s faith (see Mk. 7:24–30). The issue of defilement now recurs in a more practical form. Jesus, the Jewish teacher, had moved into Gentile territory and was confronted by a Gentile woman with a demon-possessed daughter. The dialogue which resulted focused on the question of how far a Gentile might expect any benefit from the Jewish Messiah (Son of David).
    The story is closely similar to that of the centurion’s servant (8:5–13), not only in that faith was rewarded by a healing word spoken from a distance, but also in the racial tension which put that faith to the test. By describing the woman as a Canaanite, Matthew sharpens the issue. The Canaanites were the traditional enemies of Israel in the OT.
    Jesus’ discouraging silence (23) was followed by an even more daunting statement of the Jewish focus of his mission (24; cf. 10:5–6). His words seem to have left no room for hope, but the woman persisted with a simple appeal for help, only to be confronted by a yet more wounding saying, comparing Gentiles with dogs (which for the Jews were unclean animals).
    The language seems incredibly harsh, especially when spoken by the same Jesus who had earlier welcomed the faith of the Gentile centurion as a pointer to Gentiles sharing in future in the blessings of Israel. Perhaps cold print conceals an element of irony, even playfulness, in Jesus’ tone. At any rate, he was confronting her with the sort of language a Gentile could expect to hear from a Jew, and her faith rose to the test. Her reply in v 27 recognized the priority of his mission to Israel but, nonetheless, claimed an extension of that mission to Gentiles. She had thus perceived the plan to which God had been working ever since the call of Abraham (Gn. 12:1–3), and which would in due time extend the church outside the bounds of Israel. For this faith she was appropriately rewarded.


    France, R. T. (1994). Matthew. In D. A. Carson, R. T. France, J. A. Motyer, & G. J. Wenham (Eds.), New Bible commentary: 21st century edition (4th ed., pp. 924–925). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: Inter-Varsity Press.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boys shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.--Batman

    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they dont alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.--The Doctor

  8. #5783
    The Viking Barrel Diaries
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    Just putting this out there, but I work in the Media & Production team at a Church here in Perth.

    I'll admit though, theological studies aren't my forte, I think I end up with more questions than answers, but we got this great app called Biblieview (sorry for the plug).

    The content comes from a team PhD scholars who just live and breath theology.

  9. #5784
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    He's referring to those that were perverting the true gospel and twisting it to fit their own desires.
    Of course... James and the others 'were perverting the true gospel'...

  10. #5785
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I think it has everything to do with the Jerusalem church making Jewish customs obligatory for Gentiles to convert to Christianity:
    One of the core elements of the divide between them and Paul - although they did seem to let them have a pass with regard to circumcision.

  11. #5786
    Mighty Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post

    As far as the "unclean" part goes. This is from the New Bible Commentary (part in bold from me)

    ...comparing Gentiles with dogs (which for the Jews were unclean animals).
    As I said earlier, the 'unclean' here is ritual not spiritual.



    Anyway:

    For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

    1 John 3:11 NIV

  12. #5787
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Legion87 View Post
    I just had a conversation on Facebook that was really awkward and I dont really discussing it given how the world is nowadays. A friend shared a video with some Australian guy telling his parents he was gay and he wanted them to attend his wedding. They declined due to their Christian beliefs and their son was hurt and obviously mad. The video has gone viral with many bashing the parents and Christians.


    For me its tough, because I am a Christian and believe in the the teachings of God and Jesus. My stance has always been to treat people how I would want to be treated regardless on if we share the same beliefs or not. Its very possible to love and respect each other without having to agree with every thing they chose to do with their life. I am not a Christian that beats up on gay people, or women who chose adortion or think its right l. I know I am not perfect and I am in not position to cast stones, but I just said in the comments that it doesnt make someone horrible for having beliefs. I got attacked and people claimed I was a bigot. I said nothing bad about gay or anything. It just sucks Christians get attacked and are seen as villains by society.
    It sounds like you were attacked unfairly, but homophobia is evil and can wreck lives. I can understand people being angry if they thought you were defending the man's parents' behaviour.

  13. #5788
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    It sounds like you were attacked unfairly, but homophobia is evil and can wreck lives. I can understand people being angry if they thought you were defending the man's parents' behaviour.
    What exactly are we calling homophobia? The Bible is clear that homosexuality is sinful. Now I'm not about to say it's somehow greater than any other sin, but homosexuality is distinctive because it is now viewed by society as something that is not sinful. So is it homophobic to speak the Truth of the Bible simply because people don't want to hear it? When has the Gospel message that calls for the repentence of sin ever been popular? Never should we say that anyone is going to burn in hell or something like that as that's for God to ultimately judge. But we should be telling everyone we can that the love of Jesus Christ free us from the bondage of sin. And that includes the sin of homosexuality.

  14. #5789
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    What exactly are we calling homophobia? The Bible is clear that homosexuality is sinful. Now I'm not about to say it's somehow greater than any other sin, but homosexuality is distinctive because it is now viewed by society as something that is not sinful. So is it homophobic to speak the Truth of the Bible simply because people don't want to hear it? When has the Gospel message that calls for the repentence of sin ever been popular? Never should we say that anyone is going to burn in hell or something like that as that's for God to ultimately judge. But we should be telling everyone we can that the love of Jesus Christ free us from the bondage of sin. And that includes the sin of homosexuality.
    First, our society no longer sees homosexuality as sinful. The support for gay marriage is now around 60-65%.

    But the problem some have with people who personally don't approve of Gay Marriage is when they institute laws to stop Gay people from being together.

    I am not gay, but I am sure I behave in sinful ways to you. You can tell me you think I am acting in sin, just don't try to start making it illegal.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  15. #5790
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Of course... James and the others 'were perverting the true gospel'...
    No, they weren't. He's talking about others in the church.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boys shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.--Batman

    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they dont alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.--The Doctor

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