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  1. #6601
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    You believe something because the idea appeals to you.
    Or because you have been thought to believe this from a very young age (religion is usually hereditary, it's hard to break with your parents' belief system).
    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    They really, really do not. See also the flat earthers, birthers, people from religions not even related to Christianity, people who believe Donald Trump is neither racist nor sexist, the very superstitious, Moon landing deniers and so on and so forth.
    One beliefs in something because it seems nice and supports our other beliefes, AND because not believing it would force us to take a good and long hard look at our other beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    No. Concrete evidence is the enemy of belief. You can't have belief once you have evidence. When you have evidence your belief has been transformed into knowledge.
    Look the other guys are right on this one I don't wish to derail this thread and I like discussions that are fruitful or fun and this constitutes neither since both of us will not budge so I'd rather this end here and now I'm not going to get anywhere with you on this so goodbye.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  2. #6602
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    So here's a question i always like seeing answers to: Working with the assumption that yes, there is some form of higher power out there which created everything, besides blind faith, what makes you think your religion is more true than any other?

    It was actually asking myself this question many years ago which lead to me becoming an Atheist. For a time I was actually pretty religious (born and raised Jewish), my primary motivation being a fear of not getting into Heaven. Then I started thinking about how just being religious doesn't guarantee anything. After all what if one of the numerous other religions is the correct one? After that I started reading religious texts in full, discovering the metric tons of f**ked up stuff in most of them, and thinking more about the implications of the passages I was already familiar with. Disillusioned with religion as a whole and tired of living in fear, I really put it all into context with science and history and came to the simple conclusion: "No, none of this makes sense."

  3. #6603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    So here's a question i always like seeing answers to: Working with the assumption that yes, there is some form of higher power out there which created everything, besides blind faith, what makes you think your religion is more true than any other?

    It was actually asking myself this question many years ago which lead to me becoming an Atheist. For a time I was actually pretty religious (born and raised Jewish), my primary motivation being a fear of not getting into Heaven. Then I started thinking about how just being religious doesn't guarantee anything. After all what if one of the numerous other religions is the correct one? After that I started reading religious texts in full, discovering the metric tons of f**ked up stuff in most of them, and thinking more about the implications of the passages I was already familiar with. Disillusioned with religion as a whole and tired of living in fear, I really put it all into context with science and history and came to the simple conclusion: "No, none of this makes sense."
    If your only reason for getting an answer is to laugh at us then I say this to you don't expect any answers from me or any of my brethren. Because they are of no use to you. And I warn anyone who is my brother and sister in faith to not do so because it's just yet another ploy and I wish for this thread to be a truly edifying one. Because I know a trap when I see one. So let us not start fights that will go nowhere.
    Last edited by The Dying Detective; 05-18-2018 at 09:59 AM.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  4. #6604
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBerman View Post
    Back to the thread's original topic before derailed by inevitable arguments about the validity of religion...
    Not even what anybody was talking about.

  5. #6605
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    We've evolved in this world to cope with - and rely on - what this world has to offer. Of course there is that synergy. There couldn't not be that synergy.
    Of course. Let us have some fun.

    Question: How is it that orange has Vitamin C which is absolutely needed for human beings?
    Answer: Let us go back 2 million years ago. Human beings have not 'evolved'. They are in a stage called 'Mankeys'. And they don't need Vitamin C. Oranges with Vitamin C has not evolved yet. Let us call this ancestor 'Oranze'. Now 'mankeys' eat these 'oranzes'. I can think of two explanations. Somehow while eating oranzes mankeys started needing Vtamin C which started developing simultaneously within oranzes. Or mankeys needed Vitamin C and oranzes started developing Vitamin C. (Because oranzes were so kind?).

    I know it has been a ridiculous post so far.

    But if i had been a scientist quite a number of people would accept it. People in general don't understand the jargon and the details like DNA, RNA. Its what the scientists say that's the truth for them.

    But anyway. Someone has to explain why the DNA of orange is such that oranges produce Vitamin C which human beings need. What made the DNA of orange that way?

    Evolution is such a convenient answer. When you don't know the exact answer, just say it has evolved by chance. You can toss a coin and get heads by chance. But once you start getting heads 50 times, 100 times, 1000 times you will say, 'No way! The game is rigged!.'

    Evolution theory says that earlier there were simpler chemicals. And these chemicals combined by chance to make more complicated chemicals. And these became even more complicated. And somehow they combined to give rise to a unicellular organism. Which somehow evolved into multi-cellular organism. Simple to complicated. That life ultimately started from chemicals. The long time period somehow makes it sound sensible even it is as plausible as a fairy tale. And it definitely sounds sensible as the scientists say it.

    Very well. Create life from chemicals. Scientists have studied the details of human body. They have studied life. Create life in the laboratory.

    We have experience that chemicals come from life. An orange tree will be producing oranges containing Citric Acid. But we have no experience of life being created from chemicals. Life comes from life.

    In fact, if they do this it would be most beneficial to the society. Religious people are doing so much harm. They need to be uprooted like a disease from human society. So, it shall be priority number one to create life from chemicals.

    “In my search for the secret of life, I ended up with atoms and electrons, which have no life at all. Somewhere along the line, life ran out through my fingers. So, in my old age, I am now retracing my steps…”

    -Albert Szent Gyorgyi


    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    The simple answer is "We don't know".

    Where did God come from?
    I have given my answers twice in this thread. Let us try a a bit differently since another big and explosive question has turned up. The universe came from Big Bang. So, where did the Big Bang come from?

  6. #6606
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Of course. Let us have some fun.

    Question: How is it that orange has Vitamin C which is absolutely needed for human beings?
    Answer: Let us go back 2 million years ago. Human beings have not 'evolved'. They are in a stage called 'Mankeys'. And they don't need Vitamin C. Oranges with Vitamin C has not evolved yet. Let us call this ancestor 'Oranze'. Now 'mankeys' eat these 'oranzes'. I can think of two explanations. Somehow while eating oranzes mankeys started needing Vtamin C which started developing simultaneously within oranzes. Or mankeys needed Vitamin C and oranzes started developing Vitamin C. (Because oranzes were so kind?).
    You have it backwards.
    Vitamin C is fairly common in nature, and most animals, including early humans, can synthesise it themselves in their bodies.
    Now, we (and some other animals) did lose that ability at some point although we still carry the non-functional gene for it.

    Also, Vitamin C is far from exclusive to oranges and other citrus fruits. We can get more than we need from carrots, apples, potatoes, all sorts of berries, Brussels sprouts, kiwis, onions...

    I know it has been a ridiculous post so far.
    Far from it. It's a perfectly reasonable question.

    But anyway. Someone has to explain why the DNA of orange is such that oranges produce Vitamin C which human beings need. What made the DNA of orange that way?
    A network of natural selection.
    Animals who eat healthy and nutritious plants are better spreading their genes around, leading to more animals who love said plants, thus helping those plants to spread their seeds all over the place, or even outright agriculture when it comes to us.

    If vitamin C is something that helps certain animals then plants that contain vitamin C will over time be more successful than others.

    ETA: also, this sort of mess is only to be expected in randomly generated lifeforms. In a lifeform designed by a deity this vitamin C dependency seems like a pretty bad design flaw to me.

    Evolution is such a convenient answer.
    It really is. But not in the way you think.

    Evolution theory says that earlier there were simpler chemicals. And these chemicals combined by chance to make more complicated chemicals. And these became even more complicated. And somehow they combined to give rise to a unicellular organism. Which somehow evolved into multi-cellular organism. Simple to complicated. That life ultimately started from chemicals. The long time period somehow makes it sound sensible even it is as plausible as a fairy tale. And it definitely sounds sensible as the scientists say it.

    Very well. Create life from chemicals. Scientists have studied the details of human body. They have studied life. Create life in the laboratory.
    It takes too long. But we have created amino acids, and that's pretty huge step.
    And if we could it probably would be grossly immoral and illegal.

    In fact, if they do this it would be most beneficial to the society. Religious people are doing so much harm. They need to be uprooted like a disease from human society. So, it shall be priority number one to create life from chemicals.
    It wouldn't work.
    Mankind creating life in a lab on purpose more affirms than disproves a divine creation.
    Last edited by Carabas; 05-18-2018 at 11:32 AM.

  7. #6607
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    You have it backwards.
    Vitamin C is fairly common in nature, and most animals, including early humans, can synthesise it themselves in their bodies.
    Now, we (and some other animals) did lose that ability at some point although we still carry the non-functional gene for it.

    Also, Vitamin C is far from exclusive to oranges and other citrus fruits. We can get more than we need from carrots, apples, potatoes, all sorts of berries, Brussels sprouts, kiwis, onions...


    Far from it. It's a perfectly reasonable question.


    A network of natural selection.
    Animals who eat healthy and nutritious plants are better spreading their genes around, leading to more animals who love said plants, thus helping those plants to spread their seeds all over the place, or even outright agriculture when it comes to us.

    If vitamin C is something that helps certain animals then plants that contain vitamin C will over time be more successful than others.

    ETA: also, this sort of mess is only to be expected in randomly generated lifeforms. In a lifeform designed by a deity this vitamin C dependency seems like a pretty bad design flaw to me.


    It really is. But not in the way you think.


    It takes too long. But we have created amino acids, and that's pretty huge step.
    And if we could it probably would be grossly immoral and illegal.


    It wouldn't work.
    Mankind creating life in a lab on purpose more affirms than disproves a divine creation.
    You maybe right about all this. An online search may confirm this. This explanation is based on the Theory of Evolution which depends on the claim that life can come from chemicals.

    But the fact remains that amino acid is not life. That's a building block of life. One can have parts to construct a building. But someone has to make it.

    It does not contradict my statement that life comes from life.

    Creating life in a lab may or may not disprove divine creation. But it will finally prove Theory of Evolution. Life can come from chemicals. That simple can become complicated under the right conditions and give rise to life. This will ultimately disprove the Creator in my opinion.

  8. #6608
    The Detective Man The Dying Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    It wouldn't work.
    Mankind creating life in a lab on purpose more affirms than disproves a divine creation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    You maybe right about all this. An online search may confirm this. This explanation is based on the Theory of Evolution which depends on the claim that life can come from chemicals.

    But the fact remains that amino acid is not life. That's a building block of life. One can have parts to construct a building. But someone has to make it.

    It does not contradict my statement that life comes from life.

    Creating life in a lab may or may not disprove divine creation. But it will finally prove Theory of Evolution. Life can come from chemicals. That simple can become complicated under the right conditions and give rise to life. This will ultimately disprove the Creator in my opinion.
    And if mankind created life then who created mankind when he had none of his intellect in doing so? And if life came from chemicals where did chemicals come from? Everything except God needs a beginning you know.
    Last edited by The Dying Detective; 05-18-2018 at 01:32 PM.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  9. #6609
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    So here's a question i always like seeing answers to: Working with the assumption that yes, there is some form of higher power out there which created everything, besides blind faith, what makes you think your religion is more true than any other?

    It was actually asking myself this question many years ago which lead to me becoming an Atheist. For a time I was actually pretty religious (born and raised Jewish), my primary motivation being a fear of not getting into Heaven. Then I started thinking about how just being religious doesn't guarantee anything. After all what if one of the numerous other religions is the correct one? After that I started reading religious texts in full, discovering the metric tons of f**ked up stuff in most of them, and thinking more about the implications of the passages I was already familiar with. Disillusioned with religion as a whole and tired of living in fear, I really put it all into context with science and history and came to the simple conclusion: "No, none of this makes sense."
    My answer. These names Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism are all made up names. No religion is better then the other. Religion to put in simple words means "To know God, and love God'. Everything else is meant to help someone reach this platform. It does not matter what religion one follows but if the end result is 'To know and love God' that's religion.

    There are differences in other things in different religions because the prophets, messengers, servants of God teach people as per their level of consciousness.

    There are different stages of religion. Each better then the other.

    1. Religion performed out of fear:

    The majority of religions teach worship on the platform of fear. They portray God as the all powerful, grave chastiser of wrongdoers, the one who casts the atheists in the blazing fire of hell for eternal damnation. This understanding of God as a frightening person is not a very advanced level of understanding because it focuses on only one small aspect of God; but God is much more than that.

    Still, its not needed to criticize such religions, as there is some kind of subordination to the Supreme God. While respecting every religion that teaches accepting the authority of God, we have to also objectively view the methods of practice, the goal of the practitioner, the depth of relationship and intimacy with God, its practicability, the quality of realizations that it brings to the practitioner, etc. By doing this, we can appreciate the finer aspects of the ultimate religion on one hand, while treating all people as children of God with different levels of understanding and realization of the same Supreme God.


    2. Religion performed out of desire:

    At a higher stage, a person begins to realize that all of his desires can be fulfilled only by pleading from a higher authority. When he understands that the sanction of the Lord is required to achieve his desired end, he begins to follow the injunctions of the scriptures by performing sacrifice, giving charity, taking to strict vows and austerities for the fulfillment of one’s desires.

    3. Religion performed out of duty:

    There are those who worship the Lord with feelings of gratitude arising from conceiving of Him as God, the creator and supplier of everything. The sense of duty makes them acknowledge the authority of God and be grateful to Him for providing all the necessities of life – food, grains, fruits, air, water, sunlight, minerals, etc., so that we may live happily in this world. This type of worship, out of a sense of duty, is certainly superior to worship out of fear or desire because, on this duty-bound platform, a person understands God to be a loving father who provides him all that he needs for his sustenance and protection.

    4. Religion performed out of love:

    The real platform of religion, however, is love of God where one worships God only out of love for Him. Such a devotee does not consider God to be an order-supplier; rather he offers everything he has to God out of unmotivated and uninterrupted love. It is immaterial whether one is a Hindu, Muslim or a Christian, or belonging to any other religious denomination. The ultimate goal of any true religion is to achieve pure love for God.

    There can be a mix in these forms. Old Testament of Bible most definitely is religion out of fear. But one can find the idea of love of God for its sake in the New Testament. Actually all of this makes sense. One only needs to find who is really practicing religion. There are a lot of hypocrites and frauds in this world. Its not easy to find a genuine religious person.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 05-18-2018 at 01:09 PM.

  10. #6610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Creating life in a lab may or may not disprove divine creation. But it will finally prove Theory of Evolution. Life can come from chemicals. That simple can become complicated under the right conditions and give rise to life. This will ultimately disprove the Creator in my opinion.
    It does nothing towards proving evolution because evolution doesn't really concern itself with the origin of life (it's more of a problem for biochemists) but what happened after that.

    And some blokes creating life, on purpose, with intent, in a lab does nothing toward proving it can just spontaneously generate under the right conditions. It in fact points more towards life needing an intelligent designer to get started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    And if mankind created life then who created mankind when he had none of his intellect in doing so? Everything except God needs a beginning you know.
    If this is some kind of performance art then it's really well done.

  12. #6612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    If this is some kind of performance art then it's really well done.
    Then goodbye then.
    "Excellent!" I cried. "Elementary," said he

  13. #6613
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    Then goodbye then.
    You keep saying that...

  14. #6614
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dying Detective View Post
    And if mankind created life then who created mankind when he had none of his intellect in doing so? And if life came from chemicals where did chemicals come from? Everything except God needs a beginning you know.
    Why doesn't God need a begining? Where did God come from?
    Are you saying there are things that don't need an intelligent entity to start?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  15. #6615
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    It does nothing towards proving evolution because evolution doesn't really concern itself with the origin of life (it's more of a problem for biochemists) but what happened after that.

    And some blokes creating life, on purpose, with intent, in a lab does nothing toward proving it can just spontaneously generate under the right conditions. It in fact points more towards life needing an intelligent designer to get started.
    Origin of life is such an important question and scientists aren't concerned with that? Or people who aren't biochemists? Sorry, people keep using Theory of Evolution to explain where life comes from. And use it to prove that God does not exist. (This has been going on since last pages). God is not required for origin of life. It was all by chance. And when it comes to prove that life can come from chemicals its something which can't be done. Why shall i blindly agree accept that life can be generated from matter? Just because some scientist is saying this?

    There shall be measurable results to confirm life's origin from chemicals. Without that its all suspect.

    And i don't follow your reasoning that creating life in lab will prove God's existence. Can you elaborate? Pardon me but it appears that you are trying to dodge the question of origin of life because that is inconvenient to scientists.


    Scientific method is about getting measurable results in the laboratory. And in trying to find the origin of life it appears that i have stumbled upon another problem. Problem of consciousness. Scientists just don't know what consciousness is. What life is?

    A robot can be designed to behave as a human being. It can be programmed to show emotions. Say the robot will say 'Ouch! Its painful' when hit by a bat. But is that robot actually 'feeling' pain?

    Consciousness is the symptom of life. Consciousness can't be generated by chemical reactions. (Consciousness or 'sentience' as some people would better understand from the Terminator films).

    Such an imperfect understanding of life and its origin and i am supposed to blindly accept the Theory of Evolution when it comes to explain this? Sorry that would be like blindly accepting the version of scientists. Why shall i agree with The Theory of Evolution at all when its trying to explain these questions?
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 05-18-2018 at 06:02 PM.

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