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  1. #7216
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Yes, he can can stop evil. God can do anything. This was already asked and answered many times before on this thread, but the short answer is two words = free will.
    Preventing stuff like crib death and ebola doesn't interfere with free will.

    Something which has been said numerous times already and tends to be ignored by the other side.

  2. #7217
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Yes, he can can stop evil. God can do anything. This was already asked and answered many times before on this thread, but the short answer is two words = free will. If God stops all evil in the world today, right now, then the world would be a paradise and we would not have free will. And our actions wouldn't have consequences. God has a plan and it is not time for us to live in a world of paradise. We have to live in this world first, then Jesus will return, where he will return and take all of the chosen up into his heavenly kingdom. Then there will be a tribulation of seven years, followed by a new world and new heaven. This new world will be a paradise.

    If you're going to ask "why not do it now?", it's because God has a plan and time for everything. He does not answer to us, nor do we understand his plan fully yet. We probably never will until we see Him in the next world. That's where faith and trust comes in.
    So I ask, why is the free will of the evil doers more important than the free will of their victims?

    I am sure the Jews did not choose to be shipped in cattle cars to their death. What about their free will to choose to live? Was the free will of the Nazis more important that he could not intervene?

    Did God think the free will of John Wayne Gacy more important that the dozens of children he killed?

    Is Kim Jong Un's free will more important to God than the free will of all his people?

    Telling me, "God has a plan" doesn't explain the billions who have suffered and died over the millennia, because he allowed evil to take place.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  3. #7218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Preventing stuff like crib death and ebola doesn't interfere with free will.

    Something which has been said numerous times already and tends to be ignored by the other side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    So I ask, why is the free will of the evil doers more important than the free will of their victims?

    I am sure the Jews did not choose to be shipped in cattle cars to their death. What about their free will to choose to live? Was the free will of the Nazis more important that he could not intervene?

    Did God think the free will of John Wayne Gacy more important that the dozens of children he killed?

    Is Kim Jong Un's free will more important to God than the free will of all his people?

    Telling me, "God has a plan" doesn't explain the billions who have suffered and died over the millennia, because he allowed evil to take place.
    So let's say God stops all evil in the world and gets rid of diseases and sickness. How exactly does our world survive? If he was going to do away with those things he would have done so thousands of years ago. So basically the world would have a population of about 100 billion instead of six and every one is starving because their isn't enough food to feed everyone, and now billions of people die of hunger every day. Happy now?
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

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  4. #7219
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    God can't figure out a way for that not to happen? He can't keep the birthrate down?

    Seems like something an omnipotent being could do.

    And you still haven't answered why the free will of those who do evil is more important to God than that of people who are victims and suffer!
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  5. #7220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    God can't figure out a way for that not to happen? He can't keep the birthrate down?

    Seems like something an omnipotent being could do.

    And you still haven't answered why the free will of those who do evil is more important to God than that of people who are victims and suffer!
    It's not more important to God. You're taking this discussion into a whole different area and twisting it around. I'm not sure I can explain it any better than I and the others have. I guess in the end it just boils down to whether you have faith in God's plan and trust in Him or you don't.
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  6. #7221
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    So let's say God stops all evil in the world and gets rid of diseases and sickness. How exactly does our world survive? If he was going to do away with those things he would have done so thousands of years ago. So basically the world would have a population of about 100 billion instead of six and every one is starving because their isn't enough food to feed everyone, and now billions of people die of hunger every day. Happy now?
    That just brings us back to Epicurus. If he's unable to fix minor stuff like that then he's not nearly as omnipotent as advertised. He made the rules on which the universe runs, what happens because of the way he made the rules is on him.

    Science fiction writers can manage better than that.

  7. #7222
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    So let's say God stops all evil in the world and gets rid of diseases and sickness. How exactly does our world survive? If he was going to do away with those things he would have done so thousands of years ago. So basically the world would have a population of about 100 billion instead of six and every one is starving because their isn't enough food to feed everyone, and now billions of people die of hunger every day. Happy now?
    He doesn't need to get read of death altogether - just the methods which cause excessive suffering and/or kill people too young.

  8. #7223
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    Thanks for the recommendation, but I can't speed read - which is a big part of why I read comics, not novels. That book is 980 pages. There's no way I'd ever get around to reading something that long.
    Its easy. Read a bit everyday. When i started reading that i decided to read 5 pages each day. I did this for sometime. As a regular routine. You don't enjoy it. But you do it with determination. Yes i shall do it. As i went ahead i found that i was enjoying it at times. During such times i would read more.

    I got that idea in an interesting way. There was this book 'Seven Habits of Highly Effective People' by Stephen Covey. The guy said everyone shall give sometime to themselves. He called it sharpening the saw. We have many needs. Physical, mental as well as spiritual. I read that book as part of my spiritual exercise. Thankfully, i did that. A wonderful book.

    Don't feel disheartened. There is no need to speed read. Take it slowly. Without going into ABCs of spiritual knowledge i can't explain the nature of evil. Its good that Kirby asked it in another thread. (Thanks Kirby!). I can now start answering there.

    I still recommend you to start reading that book if you are seeking answers to philosophical questions. Its the best representative of Indian philosophy.
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 07-04-2018 at 05:44 AM.

  9. #7224
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    It's not more important to God. You're taking this discussion into a whole different area and twisting it around. I'm not sure I can explain it any better than I and the others have. I guess in the end it just boils down to whether you have faith in God's plan and trust in Him or you don't.

    I hear you. I brought it to the other religion thread.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  10. #7225
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    That just brings us back to Epicurus. If he's unable to fix minor stuff like that then he's not nearly as omnipotent as advertised. He made the rules on which the universe runs, what happens because of the way he made the rules is on him.

    Science fiction writers can manage better than that.
    You're forgetting that He did make the rules for this universe and the world except this thing called sin messed it all up. Now we have to live in a world that wasn't designed to live in like this, which is why we have crib death, cancer and diseases. Sin has consequences. Now we have to deal with them. You and others here who are not Christians just want the world to be perfect except it can't be because there is sin in the world.
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  11. #7226
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    He doesn't need to get read of death altogether - just the methods which cause excessive suffering and/or kill people too young.
    Anything else you would like in this perfect world of yours? I'm trying not to be facetious but seriously, you're saying you know what is better for this world than God.
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  12. #7227
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Anything else you would like in this perfect world of yours? I'm trying not to be facetious but seriously, you're saying you know what is better for this world than God.
    The problem with this whole argument- from both sides- is that we are not arguing from the same premise. You are arguing from the view that God exists, he's the Christian god, he's all-powerful and all-knowing and he has reasons for everything that we don't necessarily understand.

    The other side is arguing from the view of questioning whether it makes any sense to believe in the existence of such a deity based on the established Christian premise of who he is, what he has done and allowed, etc. Their/ our view is more: This is what the world is and religions are just trying to explain why it is what it is.

    You know that's what's happening. So, I think, does everyone in the thread.

    Within the context of the belief system, all of these things are explained. It all comes down to whether someone finds the belief system and the explanations compelling or not.

    I agree that this should be taken to a thread all it's own not that it will accomplish anything and leave this thread to it's purpose of discussing the Bible for believers or at least to include non-believers that are willing to discuss the Bible within it's context. In other words, not being condescending but "discuss it *as if* it were true".
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  13. #7228
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    I completely agree. I've been saying this for a while now.
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  14. #7229
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    You're forgetting that He did make the rules for this universe and the world except this thing called sin messed it all up. Now we have to live in a world that wasn't designed to live in like this, which is why we have crib death, cancer and diseases. Sin has consequences. Now we have to deal with them. You and others here who are not Christians just want the world to be perfect except it can't be because there is sin in the world.
    God is omniscient. He knew that people would sin. He knew exactly how the universe would turn out when he created it - so what we got is exactly what he designed.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Anything else you would like in this perfect world of yours? I'm trying not to be facetious but seriously, you're saying you know what is better for this world than God.
    Actually my take on this is that if we take the Christian teachings at their word - that God is omnipotent and omniscient - then God is not good. He knows what is good, but doesn't do it.

  15. #7230
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    You're completely wrong. God did not create evil. That would be a sin and God can not sin. He is pure and free from sin.
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Isaiah 45:7 KJV
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