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  1. #7321
    Mighty Member foxley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    I don't know why you and others keep saying that the bible says slavery is okay. That is completely false and I'm tired of people saying it over and over here.
    Leviticus, the same part of the Bible that says it is an abomination for for a man to lie with another man, certainly seems to condone slavery.

    Leviticus 25:44-46
    "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly."

    Or are you accusing me of making this up?

  2. #7322
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    [Edit] Nevermind. Thought better of it.

  3. #7323
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    It does not oppose Slavery. Where does Jesus say all slaves should be free?

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...bible_b_880756
    We were all slaves to sin and death until Jesus stepped in and said enough. Now we are free from the punishment of everlasting death and are free to spend eternity in His heavenly kingdom, if we so choose. Still think the bible and God believe slavery is okay?
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  4. #7324
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    We were all slaves to sin and death until Jesus stepped in and said enough. Now are free from the punishment of everlasting death and are free to spend eternity in His heavenly kingdom. Still think the bible and God believe slavery is okay?
    Where does the Bible or Jesus condemn the institution of slavery? The Old Testament gives rules for it, and how to treat slaves, that is an endorsement. And Jesus does not say slavery is wrong. You just gave an off the point excuse that does not adress people living in slavery.
    You can say it doesn't matter and only their souls should be considered, but that in no way says the Bible reputiates slavery, it doesn't.
    You also seem to be saying no one went to heaven before Jesus
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  5. #7325
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxley View Post
    Leviticus, the same part of the Bible that says it is an abomination for for a man to lie with another man, certainly seems to condone slavery.

    Leviticus 25:44-46
    "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly."

    Or are you accusing me of making this up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Where does the Bible or Jesus condemn the institution of slavery? The Old Testament gives rules for it, and how to treat slaves, that is an endorsement. And Jesus does not say slavery is wrong. You just gave an off the point excuse that does not adress people living in slavery.
    You can say it doesn't matter and only their souls should be considered, but that in no way says the Bible reputiates slavery, it doesn't.
    You also seem to be saying no one went to heaven before Jesus
    I could break these down and explain all of it but I just don't have the time. So I'll just leave this verse for you both:

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female – for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. –Galatians 3:28
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  6. #7326
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    If there is neither male nor female, why is same sex marriage a problem?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #7327
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    You're now conflating love and sex. The Bible recognizes marriage as between a man and a woman (Matthew 19:4-6) and specifically states that sex outside of marriage (between a man and woman) to be sinful. While the world sees that as repressive and bigoted, it is what it is. Take it up with God when you see Him.
    No we won't be taking it up with your fantasy man in the sky. It IS repressive and bigoted and reflects exactly what it is: Bronze age morality based upon Bronze age culture and knowledge.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  8. #7328
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    If there is neither male nor female, why is same sex marriage a problem?
    Good point. Jesus's one remark can be used to somehow evade remark after remark condoning and even outlining rules for slavery because "There is neither slave nor free" somehow by some mental gymnastics means "No more slavery" and everything else said in the Bible about slavery is now somehow disqualified. But "neither male or female" does NOT mean everything else said in the Bible about same sex relationships is now disqualified.

    https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...5&action=click

    Beautiful refutation of the idiocy that the Bible doesn't condone slavery when it blatantly does over and over.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  9. #7329
    Baby Thanos Member catbellysqueezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    If there is neither male nor female, why is same sex marriage a problem?
    Welp, that's that.
    Baby Thanos

  10. #7330
    Baby Thanos Member catbellysqueezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    If there is neither male nor female, why is same sex marriage a problem?
    Welp, that's that.
    Baby Thanos

  11. #7331
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    The Bible is a continuing dialogue, not a dead letter. Christians are not exempt from personal and cultural biases but we are called on to transcend them as best we can.

  12. #7332
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    The Bible is a continuing dialogue, not a dead letter. Christians are not exempt from personal and cultural biases but we are called on to transcend them as best we can.
    That's all well and good if the Bible is just a book written by humans and the whole idea of divine inspiration is just a fantasy that people create in their minds about it. But Christians generally believe that it is divinely inspired. Hence, for most Christians, what it says in a thousands of years old text about, say, homosexuality, takes precedence over thousands of years of social change, over every bit of knowledge and understanding of the universe and how it really developed and works, etc. Of course, it's selective. Those same people generally do not believe that what it says in the Bible about slavery (condones it, makes rules for it and never directly says it is no longer allowed) is still valid.

    I respect your sentiments but what it really amounts to is that yes the Bible should not be a dead letter but it presents itself as such. Look at Revelations. This is it. Nothing can change. This is "The Book". Probably placed in there when the text of the Bible was finalized but still. Hence everything since is judged through the lens of an ancient Bronze age mythology text. The only way a lot of Christians get around it is by selectively reading it, now knowing what it says or brushing everything off with the Old Testament whether it really was just the OT or not. Then of course there are the ones that simply live in the Bronze age when it comes to their beliefs. "If it says so in the Bible, it's a fact no matter what the facts really are".
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  13. #7333
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    That's all well and good if the Bible is just a book written by humans and the whole idea of divine inspiration is just a fantasy that people create in their minds about it.
    Your biblical hermeneutic is the flipside of the fundamentalist's. You both believe that it's 100% either/or. Completely divine or thoroughly human with no in-between.

    But one can believe the Bible is divinely inspired without thinking it infallible. The biblical narrative, simply put, is that God acts within history, not outside of it. That includes all the messy complications that come from communicating that message both to and through fallible human beings.

  14. #7334
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Your biblical hermeneutic is the flipside of the fundamentalist's. You both believe that it's 100% either/or. Completely divine or thoroughly human with no in-between.

    But one can believe the Bible is divinely inspired without thinking it infallible. The biblical narrative, simply put, is that God acts within history, not outside of it. That includes all the messy complications that come from communicating that message both to and through fallible human beings.
    Fair enough but that makes it indistinguishable from a natural course of events.

    Stepping back from the all or nothing mentality, I still apply some thought to it.

    If one argues that there's an in between, that's fine. But still, then certainly most religions have equally valid insights into "God" and even philosophies also have insights. Then there's secular realities like evolution and social change. All of this sort of makes religious texts border on irrelevancy.

    There are a number of ways God, if he exists, can communicate his/ her/ its message and inspiring an ancient text that will soon be lost leaving only corrupted and changed copies is probably about the worst possible way.

    At best, one can argue that various religions reflected opinions about God at their specific times and place and others build on this.

    That makes them historically interesting.

    I do think literalist fundamentalism has done a great job of kidnapping Christianity in the sense of convincing people that Christianity is exactly what they say it is and you are not a Christian or don't really believe in "God" unless you accept their absolute literalism. Which in my opinions is destroying Christianity generation by generation as more and more people perceive Fundamentalism is a cartoon. The 700 Club and the old PTL Club and their like already convinced a generation or more than Christianity is a joke. Fundamentalism with the flaming sword and the talking snake and the ancient "morality" just continue the trend. Of course, Fundamentalists don't care because that just proves the world is going to end next Tuesday and this is all clearly a sign of it.

    There was a time in my life I was trying to rationalize and find a way to reconcile Christianity and Reality and it might have worked had it not been for all the Fundamentalists telling me it was all or nothing. But, of course, that just caused me to get past the emotional turmoil and finally ask myself why I was trying to rationalize away countless problems to keep believing something that just plain doesn't stand up to reality.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  15. #7335
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Fair enough but that makes it indistinguishable from a natural course of events.

    Stepping back from the all or nothing mentality, I still apply some thought to it.
    Oh, definitely. Sorry if it seemed as though I implied otherwise. I think you've obviously considered your worldview very thoroughly and expressed it eloquently.

    I meant something along the same lines as what you've expressed later in this post. Fundamentalism has a tendency to hold the conversation hostage, so much so that the counterargument is often dominated by the terms fundamentalism sets.

    If one argues that there's an in between, that's fine. But still, then certainly most religions have equally valid insights into "God" and even philosophies also have insights. Then there's secular realities like evolution and social change. All of this sort of makes religious texts border on irrelevancy.

    There are a number of ways God, if he exists, can communicate his/ her/ its message and inspiring an ancient text that will soon be lost leaving only corrupted and changed copies is probably about the worst possible way.

    At best, one can argue that various religions reflected opinions about God at their specific times and place and others build on this.

    That makes them historically interesting.
    I'd flip that a bit--Christianity isn't just historically interesting, it's interested in history because Christians believe that's the sphere where God acts. So there's an intersect between the history that's been communicated to believers, warts and all, and our lives today. Two lines forming cross if you will, if an old rugged one!

    I do think literalist fundamentalism has done a great job of kidnapping Christianity in the sense of convincing people that Christianity is exactly what they say it is and you are not a Christian or don't really believe in "God" unless you accept their absolute literalism. Which in my opinions is destroying Christianity generation by generation as more and more people perceive Fundamentalism is a cartoon. The 700 Club and the old PTL Club and their like already convinced a generation or more than Christianity is a joke. Fundamentalism with the flaming sword and the talking snake and the ancient "morality" just continue the trend. Of course, Fundamentalists don't care because that just proves the world is going to end next Tuesday and this is all clearly a sign of it.

    There was a time in my life I was trying to rationalize and find a way to reconcile Christianity and Reality and it might have worked had it not been for all the Fundamentalists telling me it was all or nothing. But, of course, that just caused me to get past the emotional turmoil and finally ask myself why I was trying to rationalize away countless problems to keep believing something that just plain doesn't stand up to reality.
    Thanks for sharing your experience. When I began questioning things I'd been taught, I felt led down a different path, towards Christian universalism. So I understand the journey away from fundamentalism, even if we've ended up in different places.

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