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  1. #7336
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Oh, definitely. Sorry if it seemed as though I implied otherwise. I think you've obviously considered your worldview very thoroughly and expressed it eloquently.

    I meant something along the same lines as what you've expressed later in this post. Fundamentalism has a tendency to hold the conversation hostage, so much so that the counterargument is often dominated by the terms fundamentalism sets.



    I'd flip that a bit--Christianity isn't just historically interesting, it's interested in history because Christians believe that's the sphere where God acts. So there's an intersect between the history that's been communicated to believers, warts and all, and our lives today. Two lines forming cross if you will, if an old rugged one!



    Thanks for sharing your experience. When I began questioning things I'd been taught, I felt led down a different path, towards Christian universalism. So I understand the journey away from fundamentalism, even if we've ended up in different places.
    First, I do respect that even when I start venting and saying some angry things, you stay calm and discuss things. I'm Kirk. You're Picard.

    Secondly, I could deal with at least some of the tenets of Christian Universalism, which I did look up. We can never know whether there is or is not something behind the universe. Even if there is, the question just switches from "Where did we and the universe come from?" to "Where did it come from?" But is it literally any of the Bronze Age gods people believe in? Please. That's not even a real question. But to say that those concepts were once long ago valid concepts is different and probably as valid as our own in the sense that the concepts grew out of their time and culture as ours grew out of our time and culture. Neither then or now probably has much to do with what "God" may really be if such exists.

    I like the idea of a "Corrective God" who is not punishing but guiding as opposed to the petty, vengeful god that George Carlin mocked, who loves you unconditionally unless of course you don't love him back and then he condemns you forever in a childish temper tantrum for rejecting his advances. And, although Fundamentalists would clearly disagree, the Corrective God is vastly by magnitudes more in keeping with the loving God whose whole deal is Forgiveness.

    I could go on more about why but, for now, I'll just leave it at that.
    His name is CAPTAIN MARVEL.

  2. #7337
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Never mind... don't really want to go there
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 08-15-2018 at 12:54 PM.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  3. #7338
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    First, I do respect that even when I start venting and saying some angry things, you stay calm and discuss things. I'm Kirk. You're Picard.
    Kirk is awesome! And he's usually angry about the right things. The world would be better off if more people were angry about injustice.

    (On a side note, how awesome is it that Patrick Stewart is going to play Picard again? Now if they can just get Shatner to guest star...)

    Secondly, I could deal with at least some of the tenets of Christian Universalism, which I did look up. We can never know whether there is or is not something behind the universe. Even if there is, the question just switches from "Where did we and the universe come from?" to "Where did it come from?" But is it literally any of the Bronze Age gods people believe in? Please. That's not even a real question. But to say that those concepts were once long ago valid concepts is different and probably as valid as our own in the sense that the concepts grew out of their time and culture as ours grew out of our time and culture. Neither then or now probably has much to do with what "God" may really be if such exists.
    I'd argue that older conceptions of God are relevant and there's something there to build on. We stand on the shoulders of giants, so to speak, and have benefitted from thousands of years of prophets and theologians doing the hard work. God met them where they were, not where we would have them. You can't really have free will and not get the complications that come with it. The Bible is exactly what we'd expect it to be like if God opened a dialogue with a flawed humanity (at least, it is in my opinion).

    I like the idea of a "Corrective God" who is not punishing but guiding as opposed to the petty, vengeful god that George Carlin mocked, who loves you unconditionally unless of course you don't love him back and then he condemns you forever in a childish temper tantrum for rejecting his advances. And, although Fundamentalists would clearly disagree, the Corrective God is vastly by magnitudes more in keeping with the loving God whose whole deal is Forgiveness.

    I could go on more about why but, for now, I'll just leave it at that.
    One of the problems with fundamentalism is that it essentially compartmentalizes God's love and his wrath. People ultimately end up on the receiving end of one or the other in that scheme, forever and ever. If that were truly so, then God is forever divided, eternally less than the sum of His parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by George MacDonald
    Let us look at the utterance of the apostle which is crowned with this lovely terror: "Our God is a consuming fire."

    "Wherefore, we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear, for our God is a consuming fire."--We have received a kingdom that cannot be moved--whose nature is immovable: let us have grace to serve the Consuming Fire, our God, with divine fear; not with the fear that cringes and craves, but with the bowing down of all thoughts, all delights, all loves before him who is the life of them all, and will have them all pure. The kingdom he has given us cannot be moved, because it has nothing weak in it: it is of the eternal world, the world of being, of truth. We, therefore, must worship him with a fear pure as the kingdom is unshakeable. He will shake heaven and earth, that only the unshakeable may remain, (verse 27): he is a consuming fire, that only that which cannot be consumed may stand forth eternal. It is the nature of God, so terribly pure that it destroys all that is not pure as fire, which demands like purity in our worship. He will have purity. It is not that the fire will burn us if we do not worship thus; but that the fire will burn us until we worship thus; yea, will go on burning within us after all that is foreign to it has yielded to its force, no longer with pain and consuming, but as the highest consciousness of life, the presence of God. When evil, which alone is consumable, shall have passed away in his fire from the dwellers in the immovable kingdom, the nature of man shall look the nature of God in the face, and his fear shall then be pure; for an eternal, that is a holy fear, must spring from a knowledge of the nature, not from a sense of the power. But that which cannot be consumed must be one within itself, a simple existence; therefore in such a soul the fear towards God will be one with the homeliest love. Yea, the fear of God will cause a man to flee, not from him, but from himself; not from him, but to him, the Father of himself, in terror lest he should do Him wrong or his neighbour wrong. And the first words which follow for the setting forth of that grace whereby we may serve God acceptably are these--"Let brotherly love continue." To love our brother is to worship the Consuming Fire.

  4. #7339
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  5. #7340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    No we won't be taking it up with your fantasy man in the sky. It IS repressive and bigoted and reflects exactly what it is: Bronze age morality based upon Bronze age culture and knowledge.
    That fantasy man can send people to Hell. There's a guy whos job is to get you to deny the creator.

  6. #7341
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    BROTHERS UNITED
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/21/
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  7. #7342
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    A PROMISE-KEEPING GOD
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/22/
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  8. #7343
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    JOSEPH AND HIS FAMILY
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/23/
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  9. #7344
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    IN EGYPT, BUT NOT OF IT
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/24/
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  10. #7345
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Todays Devotion:

    The Days To Come Part 1
    https://www.todayintheword.org/
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  11. #7346
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    THE DAYS TO COME: PART 2
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/29/
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  12. #7347
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    THE BURIAL OF JACOB
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/30/
    "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose"--Romans 8:28

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “Would you like a jelly baby?”--The Doctor

  13. #7348
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Over the past weekend I had a chance to go and see the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was a pretty amazing experience. They had copies of the Story of Joseph for viewing, as well as portions of Isaiah and Ezekiel and several others. The display was set in a big circular table with the actual scrolls within low-light cubbies to protect them from excessive light. Next to each scroll fragment, there was a blown up photo of a section of it along with a translation. You could search the actual text and find certain words, like the word for God (YHWH).

    For something written by hand on pieces of cloth over 2,000 years ago, they are incredibly well-preserved. Plus the handwriting is very meticulous and neat. I definitely recommend seeing the tour while it is around if you can. I saw it in Denver.

    The dating of the copies of Isaiah (over 30 of them are in the find) definitively prove that their messianic prophecies were written well before Christ came.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 08-30-2018 at 11:35 AM.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #7349
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    The question isn't when the prophesies were written. It's how much of the narrative of the New Testament was written to fit those prophesies.

    Please, we don't need to debate this here, I pretty much know how everyone will line up.

    I am just pointing out the actual question that is being considered.


    That said, the Dead Sea Scrolls are remarkable and it must have been an amazing experience to see the actual pieces.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 08-30-2018 at 12:35 PM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  15. #7350
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    BTW, for anybody that can read ancient Hebrew all of the scrolls are available online.

    https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/?locale=en_US
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

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