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  1. #7426
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    Today's Devotion:

    THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/21/
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  2. #7427
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    Today's Devotion:

    “NOT MY WILL, BUT YOURS BE DONE”
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/22/
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  3. #7428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Fascinating stuff. The Book of Enoch came up when I was Googling information about the Nephilim. There is probably some truth in its writings, just as a secular history might have, but no Divine inspiration as you say, so I too consider them not to be trusted. Personally I like, no love, the story of David and Goliath because it tells the story of mankind and how God can use us for good against seemingly impossible odds. For this reason, I am less inclined to think that God had the Nephilim in mind when he created the flood. I prefer to believe that God had his agents, us, deal with them. Thats likely one of the many reasons God became a man - in order to deal with Satan using the weakest possible vessel. Thats just how God rolls.

    That story of Og is making me want to re-read Judges with the Nephilim in mind. Considering that there might have been these mighty part-angel creatures running around at the time being part of things is a bit like science fiction or fantasy.

    As to "imprisoned Spirits" - while I was reading there was a theory that many of them are imprisoned underground and their spirits still influence the earth. Wild stuff.



    Well, they are all wiped out now, as far as we know. So ultimately, I think there was a Divine injunction against them. But they played a part in God's plan at one time.
    Actually, the Nephilim are still among us. They're just going into hiding and not being out in the open as before. They can still be seen. Most people will dismiss this stuff as a hoax.

    I consider the book of Enoch to be part of the bible. It has vital information. There were other books that were part of the bible too, but were removed.

  4. #7429
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnockBlock View Post
    Actually, the Nephilim are still among us. They're just going into hiding and not being out in the open as before. They can still be seen. Most people will dismiss this stuff as a hoax.

    I consider the book of Enoch to be part of the bible. It has vital information. There were other books that were part of the bible too, but were removed.
    Ummm., I don't wanna come in and start anything, but how? If the Nephilim are giants, we actually have a pretty concrete answer for that in that humans are generally smaller the farther you go back in time(generally about 4-5 feet with cases of 3 foot tall adult humans being on record). Gigantism isn't even uncommon today with older examples like Robert Wadlo being the tallest recorded person in history at about 8 feet or so. You also have giants like Kevin Peter Hall and Ian Whyte who are known actors and very likely not Nephilim.
    Giants are something that on some level may have some historical precedent considering the genes for it do indeed show up in the modern day, but ancient monsters? Probably not.

    There is also the problem with square cube law and that the human form is by no means meant to be scaled up farther than 6 to 7 feet tall and that's already straining things. You could get a biped bigger than that, but that's going to look very different from a human and kind of goofy looking that nobody is really going to view that as a giant person without being very poetic about it.

    In all likelihood the Nephilim is an extreme case of gigantism but theirs no way or record that things like fantasy giants exist. There is actually real world basis for giants, it's just that things are scaled a little closer in the modern day. It's more likely the story of giants descend from something these ancient societies would indeed interact with.
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  5. #7430
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    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Ummm., I don't wanna come in and start anything, but how? If the Nephilim are giants, we actually have a pretty concrete answer for that in that humans are generally smaller the farther you go back in time(generally about 4-5 feet with cases of 3 foot tall adult humans being on record). Gigantism isn't even uncommon today with older examples like Robert Wadlo being the tallest recorded person in history at about 8 feet or so. You also have giants like Kevin Peter Hall and Ian Whyte who are known actors and very likely not Nephilim.
    Giants are something that on some level may have some historical precedent considering the genes for it do indeed show up in the modern day, but ancient monsters? Probably not.

    There is also the problem with square cube law and that the human form is by no means meant to be scaled up farther than 6 to 7 feet tall and that's already straining things. You could get a biped bigger than that, but that's going to look very different from a human and kind of goofy looking that nobody is really going to view that as a giant person without being very poetic about it.

    In all likelihood the Nephilim is an extreme case of gigantism but theirs no way or record that things like fantasy giants exist. There is actually real world basis for giants, it's just that things are scaled a little closer in the modern day. It's more likely the story of giants descend from something these ancient societies would indeed interact with.
    Have you ever seen stuff from people like Thomas Horn, Steve Quale, or LA Marzulli? These are some of the top researchers on the subject.

    The Nephilim giants are taller than an average human. They can be anywhere from at least 10 foot and higher.

  7. #7432
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    Today's Devotion:

    MOUNTAIN OF LAW VERSUS MOUNTAIN OF GRACE
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/24/
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  8. #7433
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Ummm., I don't wanna come in and start anything, but how? If the Nephilim are giants, we actually have a pretty concrete answer for that in that humans are generally smaller the farther you go back in time(generally about 4-5 feet with cases of 3 foot tall adult humans being on record). Gigantism isn't even uncommon today with older examples like Robert Wadlo being the tallest recorded person in history at about 8 feet or so. You also have giants like Kevin Peter Hall and Ian Whyte who are known actors and very likely not Nephilim.
    Giants are something that on some level may have some historical precedent considering the genes for it do indeed show up in the modern day, but ancient monsters? Probably not.

    There is also the problem with square cube law and that the human form is by no means meant to be scaled up farther than 6 to 7 feet tall and that's already straining things. You could get a biped bigger than that, but that's going to look very different from a human and kind of goofy looking that nobody is really going to view that as a giant person without being very poetic about it.

    In all likelihood the Nephilim is an extreme case of gigantism but theirs no way or record that things like fantasy giants exist. There is actually real world basis for giants, it's just that things are scaled a little closer in the modern day. It's more likely the story of giants descend from something these ancient societies would indeed interact with.
    So I'm not ready to say that the Nephilim are still among us as generally those who ascribe to that more often than not come across as conpiracy theory nuts. However, you have an air of overall dismissiveness to the giants as described in the Bible. Some giants, in particular Og and Goliath had there height described in great detail. When the Israelites took Bashan prior to crossing the Jordan river, Og's bed was measured at 9x4 cubits (or 14x6 ft) in Deuteronomy 3:11. Og was also listed as the last of the Rephaites (who descended from the Nephilim).

    Goliath's measurement were much more accurate in the Book of 1st Samuel:

    A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was six cubits and a span. (9ft, 9in or 3m) He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze weighing five thousand shekels (125lbs or 58kg); on his legs he wore bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin was slung on his back. His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels. (15lbs or 6.9kg) His shield bearer went ahead of him. - 1 Samuel 17:4-7

    Again, I don't want to spark a debate, but when you used the term "fantasy giants" to describe the nephilim giants of the Scriptures, I just wondered if you were alluding to an errancy in the Old Testament.

  9. #7434
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnockBlock View Post
    Actually, the Nephilim are still among us. They're just going into hiding and not being out in the open as before. They can still be seen. Most people will dismiss this stuff as a hoax.

    I consider the book of Enoch to be part of the bible. It has vital information. There were other books that were part of the bible too, but were removed.
    Yep, count me as one who believes that to be fantasy wish fulfillment more than anything resembling truth. We humans arrogantly love to think we have all kinds of answers and secret information.

    Every single one of those guys touting those theories is selling a book, movie or lecture series about their "hidden truths." Its no coincidence that the scriptural, canonical Bible, meanwhile, is free and available to all. Its also quite straightforward and understandable, also by design.
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  10. #7435
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnockBlock View Post
    Have you ever seen stuff from people like Thomas Horn, Steve Quale, or LA Marzulli? These are some of the top researchers on the subject.

    The Nephilim giants are taller than an average human. They can be anywhere from at least 10 foot and higher.
    No.... Have your ever even read the book of Enoch? It states that the Nephilim were three hundred cubits in stature... That's 450 foot tall, and oddly the length of Noah's Ark. It also says that they eat so much that men could not produce enough food to feed them so they started to eat people, animals, and drink blood. The people you named are not "top researchers" in anatomy and physiology of gigantism but conspiracy nuts who spout stuff like the Nazis didn't lose World War 2 and built an empire under the ice caps waiting to take over the surface world.

    The book of Enoch also states that the Angel Phanuel is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. That in the Christian view is borderline blasphemy as it is between Christ and those that follow him who receive that honor and no Angel "Phanel" is any where in the teachings of the Jewish either, but that is beside the point with a whole slew of other contradictions in the book of Enoch with the actual Bible.

    As for the part of in Genesis 6 ""There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." I'd take Pastor J. Vernon McGee take on it before some one like Steve Quayle any day.

    It says, “There were giants in the earth in those days,” but it does not say they are the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men. It does say this about the offspring: “the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” These were not monstrosities; they were men. The record here makes it very clear that the giants were in the earth before this took place, and it simply means that these offspring were outstanding individuals....Then what do we have here in verse 4? As I see it, Genesis is a book of genealogies—it is a book of the families. The sons of God are the godly line who have come down from Adam through Seth, and the daughters of men belong to the line of Cain. What you have here now is an intermingling and intermarriage of these two lines, until finally the entire line is totally corrupted (well, not totally; there is one exception). That is the picture that is presented to us here.
    SOURCE: McGee, J. Vernon, Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 2000, c1981.

    As for children between Angel and man? 1st Corinthians 15:39-40, "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." Basically a fish and a bird cannot have offspring nor can Angel and man.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 09-24-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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  11. #7436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post

    It says, “There were giants in the earth in those days,” but it does not say they are the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men. It does say this about the offspring: “the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” These were not monstrosities; they were men. The record here makes it very clear that the giants were in the earth before this took place, and it simply means that these offspring were outstanding individuals....Then what do we have here in verse 4? As I see it, Genesis is a book of genealogies—it is a book of the families. The sons of God are the godly line who have come down from Adam through Seth, and the daughters of men belong to the line of Cain. What you have here now is an intermingling and intermarriage of these two lines, until finally the entire line is totally corrupted (well, not totally; there is one exception). That is the picture that is presented to us here.

    SOURCE: McGee, J. Vernon, Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 2000, c1981.
    Unfortunately, the Hebrew text of Genesis does not support the Sethite/Cainite theory. The Hebrew for Sons of God is Bene-ha Elohim and the Daughters of Man is Benowt-ha Adam. The distinction is those that were created directly of God and those created directly from Adam. It also is worth noting that every other time the phrase Sons of God is used in the Old Testament, it is in reference to angels. (Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Job 38:7; Daniel 3:25). Nowhere in the Hebrew (or Greek) text is any mention made in Genesis 6 regarding Seth or Cain.

    The first mentions of the Sethite theory originated in 2nd century AD and was put forth by early Christian fathers such as Julius Africanus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Augustine. This was part of a greater attempt that was made to allegorize the Scriptures because as Christianity spread to the Hellenized world, they felt the need to harmonize Christian theology with Greek philosophy. This was the beginning of amillennial eschatology. Prior to this, the predominant view of the Jewish world was that Genesis 6 was referencing a hybridization between angel and human.

    On a final note, the Book of Jude makes specific reference to this as "Angels who did not keep their station and went after strange flesh" (Jude 1:6,7) and then directly compares them to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who abandoned what was natural and pursued strange flesh" This passage supports the angel theory as well.

  12. #7437
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    Augustine was over 100 years after the other three, so his purpose was likely different from theirs. Perhaps it was the popular view at the time, like it appears to be still today.

    Tough to see an angel, fallen or otherwise, being able to reproduce. Their appearance is a bit all over the map in scriptures. Were they like us in any way in reality? Bene-ha Elohim just isn't a lot to go on as far as anything but their basic nature being direct creations of God.

    Sorry for side-tracking.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 09-24-2018 at 02:18 PM.
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  13. #7438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    Unfortunately, the Hebrew text of Genesis does not support the Sethite/Cainite theory. The Hebrew for Sons of God is Bene-ha Elohim and the Daughters of Man is Benowt-ha Adam. The distinction is those that were created directly of God and those created directly from Adam. It also is worth noting that every other time the phrase Sons of God is used in the Old Testament, it is in reference to angels. (Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Job 38:7; Daniel 3:25). Nowhere in the Hebrew (or Greek) text is any mention made in Genesis 6 regarding Seth or Cain.

    The first mentions of the Sethite theory originated in 2nd century AD and was put forth by early Christian fathers such as Julius Africanus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Augustine. This was part of a greater attempt that was made to allegorize the Scriptures because as Christianity spread to the Hellenized world, they felt the need to harmonize Christian theology with Greek philosophy. This was the beginning of amillennial eschatology. Prior to this, the predominant view of the Jewish world was that Genesis 6 was referencing a hybridization between angel and human.

    On a final note, the Book of Jude makes specific reference to this as "Angels who did not keep their station and went after strange flesh" (Jude 1:6,7) and then directly compares them to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah who abandoned what was natural and pursued strange flesh" This passage supports the angel theory as well.
    Does it though? There was only one word for "man" in the Hebrew at the time and that was "Adam" so its easy to get lost in the translation of "man". Adam was created directly from God, and Seth was the likeness and of Adam and through him a divine line to Noah Adam was a son of God and his likeness would be too. Its also worth noting that Deuteronomy 14:1 32:5,6- Isaiah 43:6- Hosea 2:1 11:1 - Exodus 4:22,23 and Psalm 82:6 73:15 with a slew of references in the New Testament of sons of God are used to describe the Jewish people and those that follow Christ such as 1 john 3:2 "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." So its not "every other time" there are more times that "sons of god" or the like refer to men than angels in the bible... Even today we are told that we are all God's children. And to be fair Genesis 6 also doesn't mention the Angels of the Lord either yet 4 and an 5 does list Seth and Cain's decedents (oddly the only woman on the list was Tubal-cain would name means beautiful. Why were the Sons of God attracted to the Daughter of Man again? Must just be a conscience....)

    Moses wrote the book of Genesis and Leviticus and with book such as Deuteronomy and many others it would seem that the Sethite idea fits with Deuteronomy 7:1-4 you know a lesson like the bible has those in it right? What was the lesson of Genesis 6? Not to sleep with Angels when they come calling? I don't think so, its not to mix with those that are not of the covenant. I really don't like the "fallen angel theory myself because it makes God look like he has no control over earth or heaven, Got people being evil all over the place on earth and angels jumping out of heaven to get with hot chicks, in the short it makes God look incompetent. Also it pushes the blame off of man... Angels came down as seduced the women it wasn't all our fault. The bible states that god set the flood to punish the wickedness of man, not of Angels.
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 09-25-2018 at 07:19 AM.
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  14. #7439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    So I'm not ready to say that the Nephilim are still among us as generally those who ascribe to that more often than not come across as conpiracy theory nuts.
    The term conspiracy theory or theorist was made in 1967.

    We were told that we would have to contend for our faith. Jesus would not be telling people that they were conspiracy theorists or they were crazy and all that kind of stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Yep, count me as one who believes that to be fantasy wish fulfillment more than anything resembling truth. We humans arrogantly love to think we have all kinds of answers and secret information.

    Every single one of those guys touting those theories is selling a book, movie or lecture series about their "hidden truths." Its no coincidence that the scriptural, canonical Bible, meanwhile, is free and available to all. Its also quite straightforward and understandable, also by design.
    If it were so straightforward and understandable we wouldn't have so much "is this real or not?". Which is a problem in this world.

    Who or what you choose to believe is your choice. I'll choose to believe the whole truth and not just half the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    No.... Have your ever even read the book of Enoch? It states that the Nephilim were three hundred cubits in stature... That's 450 foot tall, and oddly the length of Noah's Ark. It also says that they eat so much that men could not produce enough food to feed them so they started to eat people, animals, and drink blood. The people you named are not "top researchers" in anatomy and physiology of gigantism but conspiracy nuts who spout stuff like the Nazis didn't lose World War 2 and built an empire under the ice caps waiting to take over the surface world.

    The book of Enoch also states that the Angel Phanuel is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. That in the Christian view is borderline blasphemy as it is between Christ and those that follow him who receive that honor and no Angel "Phanel" is any where in the teachings of the Jewish either, but that is beside the point with a whole slew of other contradictions in the book of Enoch with the actual Bible.

    As for the part of in Genesis 6 ""There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." I'd take Pastor J. Vernon McGee take on it before some one like Steve Quayle any day.


    SOURCE: McGee, J. Vernon, Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 2000, c1981.

    As for children between Angel and man? 1st Corinthians 15:39-40, "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another." Basically a fish and a bird cannot have offspring nor can Angel and man.
    I'll trust what Steve Quayle said about it over J. Vernon McGee says. Where did the Nephilim come from? Adam's line wasn't tainted and his descendants followed God until they became corrupted.

    People in the pre flood world were taller than people in the post flood world. That includes the Giants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnockBlock View Post
    I'll trust what Steve Quayle said about it over J. Vernon McGee says.
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