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  1. #751
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edhopper View Post
    Well that's one way to get around how many believers don't know what's in the Bible.

    We are talking about knowledge of the text, not your idea of what "understanding" is.

    As for Holy Spirit. Believers equally filled with the Holy Spirit disagree completely what God's Will is.
    Redemption of man through the shed blood/sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The establishment of God's kingdom in heaven as well as on earth. And the destruction of Satan's worldly rule/influence. Who has the right to rule mankind? God? or Man? According to Satan, man can wisely, justly, and lovingly rule himself. Adam and Eve believed Satan then, and mankind believes Satan now. The issue at the heart of the matter is universal sovereignty. The random element is man's free moral agency. We have a right to choose our path, Mr. Hopper. Everyone is on a path. The believer, the agnostic, the atheist, my Cheyenne friend, you, me, etc. My path is exploration. I seek to unlock doors--not close them. Kick them in if I have to!

  2. #752
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Who cares what Disraeli has to say? He was an imperialist prick who would never let facts and evidence get in the way of his romantic narrative of dominating the globe through aggressive expansion.
    Who cares what you have to say? Who cares what anybody has to say? “Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.”
    ― Mark Twain Who cares what Sam has to say? That's a child's game.

  3. #753
    Fantastic Member Red Wolf's Avatar
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    Wait a minute. I'm on a path?

  4. #754
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Okay, just needed to correct your post that detractors have not read the Bible.
    The facts are different. It's a minor point.

    Let's move on.

  5. #755
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    Redemption of man through the shed blood/sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The establishment of God's kingdom in heaven as well as on earth. And the destruction of Satan's worldly rule/influence. Who has the right to rule mankind? God? or Man? According to Satan, man can wisely, justly, and lovingly rule himself. Adam and Eve believed Satan then, and mankind believes Satan now. The issue at the heart of the matter is universal sovereignty. The random element is man's free moral agency. We have a right to choose our path, Mr. Hopper. Everyone is on a path. The believer, the agnostic, the atheist, my Cheyenne friend, you, me, etc. My path is exploration. I seek to unlock doors--not close them. Kick them in if I have to!
    If the Bible is true, then God is responsible for more death and suffering than any mortal could possibly be capable of, and nearly all of it for rather petty reasons. Satan comes off looking pretty good by comparison.

  6. #756
    Fantastic Member Red Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    If the Bible is true, then God is responsible for more death and suffering than any mortal could possibly be capable of, and nearly all of it for rather petty reasons. Satan comes off looking pretty good by comparison.
    Well, people do make stupid decisions with disastrous outcomes. Take european expansion to the north American continent for example. God had nothing to do with that but it didn't stop europeans from killing and stealing in the name of Jesus.

  7. #757
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edhopper View Post
    Okay, just needed to correct your post that detractors have not read the Bible.
    The facts are different. It's a minor point.

    Let's move on.
    You're right, Mr. Hopper.

  8. #758
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwolf View Post
    Well, people do make stupid decisions with disastrous outcomes. Take european expansion to the north American continent for example. God had nothing to do with that but it didn't stop europeans from killing and stealing in the name of Jesus.
    The most infamous slave ship in history was called the Good Ship Jesus. Anyway...I'm getting off topic. Sorry.

  9. #759
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwolf View Post
    Well, people do make stupid decisions with disastrous outcomes. Take european expansion to the north American continent for example. God had nothing to do with that but it didn't stop europeans from killing and stealing in the name of Jesus.
    How do you know God had nothing to do with it? Those Europeans certainly believed God was with them. And it's not like there isn't any God ordained genocide in the Bible.

  10. #760
    Veteran Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midgetradio View Post
    Sadly, I'm afraid I don't got that. Still feels like a pretty limited way to approach a text. Everything in Uncanny X-Men is correct and should be followed. Or, some portion of Uncanny X-men is not correct and should not be followed. That's pretty clearly non-sensical. It's probably due largely to the inclusion of "should be followed," which would limit one's approach to Uncanny X-Men as though it were simply a list of rules. Is that how you read the Bible? If so, I'd call that a hindrance.
    As edhopper said, if it's just another book to you read out of curiosity then there's no reason you have to give any weight to it. If you're choosing to follow the religion, however, you need to give it weight. Some argue you have to take all of it, others say it's fine to ignore certain parts. Then there are folk like me who think it's mostly BS (again, some mundane name/location details were probably correct, but not the things that make the book relevant to a follower of the religion).

    If the bible is as important to you as say a random issue of Uncanny X-Men, it means you're probably not accepting much of the supernatural bits of the bible. Or you take the X-Men way too seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by edhopper View Post
    But many people do read it as a guide on how exactly to live, and condemn others for not adhering to it. Even killing others for disobeying it's laws. Read as a cultural text that is fine, "these events have some truth to them, those events are myth" and so on. But if it is God's words and his commands, what people decide has more severe consequences that the continuity of the X-Men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Sorry, you know how it is. You type all that and oh well, might as well send it all. But you say setting up straw man and conveniently forgetting. You really don't have to assume that I'm out to limit you or make you feel bad to make myself feel better. With "conveniently forgetting" you have to understand that if I don't have your points of contention, then what comes to my mind aren't the same things that would come to you. There's nothing that I'm ignoring or needing to remember.

    The proper given title across many translations is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The point is that while we are set up to presume that being with God taught them good, Adam, Eve, and the serpent had free will. So they learned good and evil, and the consequence we see is learning shame. The point you make is explained well enough in one site I came across: "Satan had already rebelled against God and then tempted Eve to join him in rebellion against God. Satan used the oldest ploy in his playbook of deceit - God is a cosmic killjoy who is trying to keep something good from you." The Rich Deem who wrote that is an apologist and medical scientist. The serpent's point was that God didn't want us being like Him. But all this time later, people are free to rebel with their will, and none of us are omnipotent. Most humans are embarrassingly incompetent in one daily task or another.

    As for persecution throughout history, it goes in all directions against all people and I defend none of it.


    The psalms are a very large section, but it doesn't take very long at all to read all but a few of them in whole. A minute maybe, for some of them. As for heaven, when someone makes a promise, you believe them or you don't. So if they promise something better, and you believe them, this simply means that you're willing to expect with confidence.

    And you keep throwing in stuff like "functioning adult human being." I'm not sure who but that clearly implies that someone or some people out there aren't. Either the disabled aren't relevant to the conversation or you're taking digs. Can't you do without that?


    Do you see how hard many people claw to get more time on Earth?


    I asked you to point something out, or at least I meant to ask.



    That I is singular. We aren't saved through groups of people or fancy buildings. Which is why I again say that there's no argument I'm making to justify the Middle Ages or anything like that.


    Unless you have physical text handy, and maybe a lot of old stuff you were able to directly translate and prove, that's a difficult point to defend.


    I only cut these to make the actual post smaller. You still haven't provided proof that you have read anything that you would present as contentious given the context. I think the bible is pretty clear on us reaping what we sow, wives not to be treated harshly, and homosexuals not be be hated. The unfortunate thing is that many do seem in fact to confuse human action with commands from the bible. I have not read a passage on making people slaves, but the bible does in fact acknowledge masters and slaves. And yet... slaves existed in cultures without Christianity, right? It reminds me of how Hitler claimed to be a Catholic, but anyone who would blame Catholic faith for the Holocaust would be way off the money. People do terrible things with or without sacred texts.



    lol, sounds like another dig at the end there. If I'm willing to actually type out a message, it sounds like that says I'm some crazy guy who just sits on the internet wasting time. But you point out a contradiction I see people use all the time: that faith is a quick and comforting answer, yet people go through immense hardships to maintain it?
    First bolded- Right, I'm taking a shot at the disabled. "But I'm not saying things to hurt you and make myself feel better". This is probably one of the most disgusting strawman arguments I've ever seen. I was speaking of an emotionally functional adult being someone who wouldn't be a biblical literalist. So, no taking slaves from the sons of Ham, no treating your wife like property, no stoning people to death for various violations of biblical law, etc. A person like that would need to be locked away from the rest of society. Luckily very few Christians follow all of what the bible says.

    Second bolded- I do see, and when push comes to shove nothing says "Deep down I know this is all bulls##t" than clawing like a rat on a sinking ship to grasp one more second in real life. People say there are no atheists in foxholes or on death beds, but I wonder how often the opposite is true?

    Third bolded- How about the way he treated his new toys in Adam and Eve after they ate from the tree? Was he sad, was he happy, or was he a very angry (and somehow surprised, despite supposedly being an all-knowing being)? How about when he drowned everything but Noah, his family, and a couple of each type of animal? How about when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? How about when he sent winged magical beings to slaughter innocent first born children (including infants) to prove a point? How about eternally tormenting people for making bad choices in a lifespan of 0-120 years without possibility of parole? Any of that strike you as the behavior of an emotionally well-adjusted being? To say nothing of his need to be eternally praised and worshiped to the exclusion of all others? Again, seems more like a human dictator to me than a perfect magical and loving being.

    Fourth bolded- And that's the biggest goal-post move I've ever seen. No, I don't have to hit you with hundreds of Middle Age texts breaking down the changes in societal attitudes towards oppression by the Church, and I'm guessing if I did you'd find a new reason to dismiss them. I only have to observe history to see where they were allowed to behave this way and when, and where and when people started standing up to it. To be fair to the church, they're still not as bad as their leader (assuming you believe he exists).

    Fifth bolded- "C'mon man, everyone was doing it!" Sure, slavery was a part of history and continues to be to this day (though it's harder to track and not officially sanctioned by church and state outside of a few countries). So I get that when this book was written by Bronze Age sheep herders it made sense to add that detail in, for business reasons. The same reason a lot of crazy rules were added, and are as ignored as the justification for slavery is in the modern world. It is fun to point out though, if you don't follow the book. If you do I can see how it's embarrassing and best moved on from, though. Also, read up on the Catholic Church and the Nazis. They did a lot to help them and should absolutely be judged for it.

    Sixth bolded/Diamond response- That was a shot at me. It was self-deprecation. I get that you're probably uncomfortable defending what you're defending and so might view everything I'm saying as an attack (when in reality it's just observation of some crazy teachings from thousands of years ago that I can't believe are still relevant), but that was directed at me.

    Seventh bolded- It makes sense when you realize they're taking the easy answers and ignoring the horrifying and disgusting parts of their religion. It's called willful ignorance. Most folks who are Christian don't really examine the bible and everything in it. Any time they have to review those awful bits they treat it like it's a story that applied to another group at another time. Nothing to do with their lord and savior (and again with the need for praise and insecurities) and eternal life and salvation and other vague terms that don't offend. It'd be a lot more convenient if those parts didn't exist so it'd never come up in discussions like this, but again you'd need to reboot your church to do that. Until then it's a package deal, and mostly folks just stick the rest up on a shelf somewhere in their head and use the parts they like.
    Last edited by CSTowle; 01-17-2016 at 04:31 AM.
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  11. #761
    Veteran Member CSTowle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    If the Bible is true, then God is responsible for more death and suffering than any mortal could possibly be capable of, and nearly all of it for rather petty reasons. Satan comes off looking pretty good by comparison.
    For hell alone he's worse than any Hitler/Stalin/Kim Jong Un/etc. Rounding folks up and killing them is truly awful, it's the worst thing we as humans can do. The idea (thankfully one that's almost certainly make-believe, though what that says about those who made it up...) that any being, even/especially one that claims to be a perfect and loving one, would submit anyone (even the Hitlers/Stalins/etc.) to eternal torture and pain forever and ever and ever is far more horrifying than anything we could ever do.

    It also doesn't make much sense when you examine it for any period of time (like most of the myths). I'm not a biologist or any kind of -ologist, but from what I understand pain is your body's signal that something bad is happening and you should stop it. So why do you have pain receptors in a magical other realm? Why is it dark? Do your eyes not take in light rays? Do you have eyes? Are they burned out from all the eternal torment? And why fire? Is it just the best thing they could come up with at the time, sitting around thinking up the worst things they could to scare children and the simple minded out of contradicting them?

    Wouldn't you get used to it pretty quickly? Wouldn't your mind snap? I'm guessing because the folks who wrote the bible weren't biologists or any kind of -ologists either they didn't know about wavelengths of light and pain receptors and psychology and the like. It's like what you'd get if you sat around with your friends as a kid and made up the -most awful stories you could.

    What's to be gained from hurting others for mistakes made? It's not like they're learning a lesson, at least not one that's going to serve them. And if you're up in the good magical other realm and someone you loved is being eternally tormented for something as minor as being a good person in general but not swallowing these myths wouldn't that put a damper on your fun? Or does this god tamper with your mind and hide reality from you to keep you happy? A d##k move, but hardly in his top 10.

    As to reading the bible, of course I have. Attended church for many years. Even as a child it didn't make much sense to me, and it hasn't gotten better over time. I'd imagine it'd be comforting to believers to think that most of those who don't believe aren't familiar with the bible and its contents, but the truth is that's why most of us are atheists.
    Last edited by CSTowle; 01-17-2016 at 04:36 AM.
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  12. #762
    Astonishing Member Old Man Ollie 1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edhopper View Post
    How do you know God had nothing to do with it? Those Europeans certainly believed God was with them. And it's not like there isn't any God ordained genocide in the Bible.
    RW makes a valid point, Mr. Hopper. Europeans used the Bible and God to justify genocide and the institution of slavery. BUT IT WAS NOT ORDAINED BY GOD. Now, the fact that God himself waged war against the Egyptians shows that he is not against all warfare, however. On other occasions, he authorized ancient Israel--his people--to wage war. For example, he commanded them to wage war against the Canaanites, who were exceedingly wicked. (Deuteronomy 9:5; 20:17, 18) He directed Israel’s King David to war against the oppressive Philistines. God even provided David with a battle strategy that ensured victory.—2 Samuel 5:17-25. Those Bible accounts reveal that when certain forms of wickedness and oppression threatened the Israelites, God authorized warfare for the protection of his people and the preservation of true worship. GOD ALONE DETERMINED WHO WOULD ENGAGE IN WARFARE. On one occasion, God told the Israelites: “You will not need to fight this battle.” The reason? God himself would wage war in their behalf. (2 Chronicles 20:17; 32:7, 8) He did so many times, such as on the occasion mentioned at the outset of this article. At other times, God commanded his people in ancient Israel to fight in wars that he approved, namely, those that involved securing and defending their Promised Land.—Deuteronomy 7:1, 2; Joshua 10:40. GOD ALONE DETERMINED WHEN SUCH WARFARE WOULD TAKE PLACE. God’s servants were to wait patiently for God’s appointed time to war against the oppression and wickedness that surrounded them. Until then, they were not to take it upon themselves to engage in war. When they did, they lost divine approval. In fact, the Bible shows that when the Israelites presumed to engage in warfare that God had not authorized, the results were often disastrous. GOD TAKES NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF HUMANS, INCLUDING THE WICKED. God is the Source of life and the Creator of humankind. (Psalm 36:9) Therefore, he does not desire to see people die. Sadly, though, there are people who wickedly scheme to oppress and even kill others. (Psalm 37:12, 14) To halt such evil, God has at times authorized warfare against the wicked. And yet, throughout the years that he had the Israelites engage in such wars, he was still “merciful” and “slow to anger” toward Israel’s oppressors. (Psalm 86:15) For example, he decreed that before the Israelites warred against a city, they were to “announce to it terms of peace,” in order to give the inhabitants an opportunity to change their ways and avoid war. (Deuteronomy 20:10-13) In this way, God showed that he takes “no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living.”—Ezekiel 33:11, 14-16. Don't let me get started on the crusades. But I will if I must. There was absolutely NOTHING holy about the crusades.

  13. #763
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Who's to say what God does or does not ordain? The natives obviously didn't worship the Christian God and they certainly had at least a few cultural practices which the Europeans would have found objectionable, so it was all justified by Biblical precedent of Canaan. Seems like it's up to individual believers to decide what God approves of, which has caused innumerable problems throughout history.

  14. #764
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School Ollie 1962 View Post
    RW makes a valid point, Mr. Hopper. Europeans used the Bible and God to justify genocide and the institution of slavery. BUT IT WAS NOT ORDAINED BY GOD. Now, the fact that God himself waged war against the Egyptians shows that he is not against all warfare, however. On other occasions, he authorized ancient Israel--his people--to wage war. For example, he commanded them to wage war against the Canaanites, who were exceedingly wicked. (Deuteronomy 9:5; 20:17, 18) He directed Israel’s King David to war against the oppressive Philistines. God even provided David with a battle strategy that ensured victory.—2 Samuel 5:17-25. Those Bible accounts reveal that when certain forms of wickedness and oppression threatened the Israelites, God authorized warfare for the protection of his people and the preservation of true worship. GOD ALONE DETERMINED WHO WOULD ENGAGE IN WARFARE. On one occasion, God told the Israelites: “You will not need to fight this battle.” The reason? God himself would wage war in their behalf. (2 Chronicles 20:17; 32:7, 8) He did so many times, such as on the occasion mentioned at the outset of this article. At other times, God commanded his people in ancient Israel to fight in wars that he approved, namely, those that involved securing and defending their Promised Land.—Deuteronomy 7:1, 2; Joshua 10:40. GOD ALONE DETERMINED WHEN SUCH WARFARE WOULD TAKE PLACE. God’s servants were to wait patiently for God’s appointed time to war against the oppression and wickedness that surrounded them. Until then, they were not to take it upon themselves to engage in war. When they did, they lost divine approval. In fact, the Bible shows that when the Israelites presumed to engage in warfare that God had not authorized, the results were often disastrous. GOD TAKES NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF HUMANS, INCLUDING THE WICKED. God is the Source of life and the Creator of humankind. (Psalm 36:9) Therefore, he does not desire to see people die. Sadly, though, there are people who wickedly scheme to oppress and even kill others. (Psalm 37:12, 14) To halt such evil, God has at times authorized warfare against the wicked. And yet, throughout the years that he had the Israelites engage in such wars, he was still “merciful” and “slow to anger” toward Israel’s oppressors. (Psalm 86:15) For example, he decreed that before the Israelites warred against a city, they were to “announce to it terms of peace,” in order to give the inhabitants an opportunity to change their ways and avoid war. (Deuteronomy 20:10-13) In this way, God showed that he takes “no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living.”—Ezekiel 33:11, 14-16. Don't let me get started on the crusades. But I will if I must. There was absolutely NOTHING holy about the crusades.
    Why is your reading of the Bible the correct one. They were all evil and deserved genocide? Even the children? You know G W Bush said God told him to invade Iraq. Was he lying, or did he believe it? Did all those who have said God was behind their wars or endorsed slavery or condemned homosexuals to death, are their beliefs wrong? They can show you with bible quotes why they are right. Are you so sure you are the only one who has the right interpretation of all this. Don't you think those who used the Bible to wage war were equally sure of their understanding of the Bible?

  15. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Who's to say what God does or does not ordain? The natives obviously didn't worship the Christian God and they certainly had at least a few cultural practices which the Europeans would have found objectionable, so it was all justified by Biblical precedent of Canaan. Seems like it's up to individual believers to decide what God approves of, which has caused innumerable problems throughout history.
    Well the Egyptians were actively waging war against God and enslaving his chosen people and continued to do so after many years of warnings to stop. These warnings also included what would happen to them if they didn't.
    The native americans were kinda just minding their business. Using religion to liberate yourself from an oppressor is a lot different than using it to decimate and enlsave people who have done nothing to you. Why do atheists always miss the subtle nuances of everything?

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