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  1. #7711
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Why God did this particular thing has to be understood, from a 'bona-fide authority'. Or someone who has heard from such a bona-fide source. Its quite crazy that to understand equations of mathematics we need experts/teachers. But for God or religion pretty much everyone is an expert.
    What experts? Are you talking about theologians and clergy. Because unlike math, they cannot agree on anything.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #7712
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Why God did this particular thing has to be understood, from a 'bona-fide authority'. Or someone who has heard from such a bona-fide source. Its quite crazy that to understand equations of mathematics we need experts/teachers. But for God or religion pretty much everyone is an expert.
    Who is this expert authority? Theologians and clergy? Because unlike math, they don't agree on anything.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  3. #7713
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChadH View Post
    More or less the sort of answer I was expecting.
    And the sort of reply i was expecting too.

    Are we supposed to set standards for God or God is supposed to set standards for us? Aren't we playing Gods here?
    Last edited by Soubhagya; 12-29-2018 at 10:58 AM.

  4. #7714
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  5. #7715
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Who is this expert authority? Theologians and clergy? Because unlike math, they don't agree on anything.
    Well that can be answered by others. I accept Christ as son of God, but am not even a Christian if that makes any sense to you.

    Just find someone who is mad after God, and whose life and qualities are sublime and spotless. Who lives and dies by the word of God as given in the scriptures. That's the best i can do for the Western side. I admit that such people are rare.

  6. #7716
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Thanks but I prefer to keep my own counsel.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  7. #7717
    Fantastic Member Psimitar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Abraham. The man God told to kill his son to prove his loyalty? Isn't that something despots like Kim Jong Il do? I always found that story very cruel.
    For the unbeliever, this story does make God seem arbitrary and cruel. But look at it from Abraham's perspective. We've already talked about God's attributes and in this story, his holiness and righteousness come into play. Instead of saying "if God is asking me to kill my son, he must not be righteous and holy", Abraham instead said "God is righteous and holy and he keeps his promises and he promised me a son, so in faith, I will do what the Lord commands." The Hebrew writer even confirms this when he wrote

    "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death." (Hebrews 11:17-19)

    There is an additional aspect to this story which is prophetic in nature. And I believe that while Abraham didn't understand the full picture, he understood that God was playing something out through him. This becomes evident when after a three day journey (a prophetic pattern in itself) Isaac asks Abraham "Father, the fire and wood are here but there is no lamb for the sacrifice." (Genesis 22:7) To which Abraham replies "God will provide the lamb for the sacrifice." (Genesis 22:8) What makes this even more prophetic, is that this occurred on Mt. Moriah, the future location of the city of Jerusalem. Typically, when a sacrifice was made, it was done on the highest point of the mountain, which, in the case of Mt. Moriah, was a place called Golgotha. So the place where Abraham offered his son for a sacrifice was on the exact spot that God himself provided his only Son as the lamb for another sacrifice, a sacrifice that He actually went through with.

    One of the hardest things for the unbelieving heart to acknowledge is the Creator/creature distinction. In our pride and rebellion we think we get to decide how we think God should behave. And when God doesn't conform to our presupposed sensibilites, we decide he's either cruel or doesn't exist. If you look at the story of Job, when God finally does answer him about why he's suffering in Job 38, we don't see a God who's explaining a whole lot.

    Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

    “Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
    Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
    Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
    On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels shouted for joy?

    And God goes on like that for another 3 chapters. And while is seems uncaring and cruel, it is God reminding Job that HE is the Creator and Job is the creature. And eventually Job gets it.

    Then Job replied to the Lord:

    “I know that you can do all things;
    no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
    Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me to know.

    “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.’
    My ears had heard of you
    but now my eyes have seen you.
    Therefore I despise myself
    and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:1-6)

    No one ever said believing is easy. It takes a lot to acknowledge an all-powerful Creator. It takes a lot more to ask how you are accountable to that Creator. Most don't have the faith to do it. Otherwise the Church would be growing, not shrinking. But ultimately it's up to every person whether they answer God's call or not.

  8. #7718
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply Psimitar.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  9. #7719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    For the unbeliever, this story does make God seem arbitrary and cruel. But look at it from Abraham's perspective. We've already talked about God's attributes and in this story, his holiness and righteousness come into play. Instead of saying "if God is asking me to kill my son, he must not be righteous and holy", Abraham instead said "God is righteous and holy and he keeps his promises and he promised me a son, so in faith, I will do what the Lord commands." The Hebrew writer even confirms this when he wrote

    "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death." (Hebrews 11:17-19)

    There is an additional aspect to this story which is prophetic in nature. And I believe that while Abraham didn't understand the full picture, he understood that God was playing something out through him. This becomes evident when after a three day journey (a prophetic pattern in itself) Isaac asks Abraham "Father, the fire and wood are here but there is no lamb for the sacrifice." (Genesis 22:7) To which Abraham replies "God will provide the lamb for the sacrifice." (Genesis 22:8) What makes this even more prophetic, is that this occurred on Mt. Moriah, the future location of the city of Jerusalem. Typically, when a sacrifice was made, it was done on the highest point of the mountain, which, in the case of Mt. Moriah, was a place called Golgotha. So the place where Abraham offered his son for a sacrifice was on the exact spot that God himself provided his only Son as the lamb for another sacrifice, a sacrifice that He actually went through with.

    One of the hardest things for the unbelieving heart to acknowledge is the Creator/creature distinction. In our pride and rebellion we think we get to decide how we think God should behave. And when God doesn't conform to our presupposed sensibilites, we decide he's either cruel or doesn't exist. If you look at the story of Job, when God finally does answer him about why he's suffering in Job 38, we don't see a God who's explaining a whole lot.

    Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

    “Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
    Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
    Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
    On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels shouted for joy?

    And God goes on like that for another 3 chapters. And while is seems uncaring and cruel, it is God reminding Job that HE is the Creator and Job is the creature. And eventually Job gets it.

    Then Job replied to the Lord:

    “I know that you can do all things;
    no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
    Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me to know.

    “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.’
    My ears had heard of you
    but now my eyes have seen you.
    Therefore I despise myself
    and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:1-6)

    No one ever said believing is easy. It takes a lot to acknowledge an all-powerful Creator. It takes a lot more to ask how you are accountable to that Creator. Most don't have the faith to do it. Otherwise the Church would be growing, not shrinking. But ultimately it's up to every person whether they answer God's call or not.
    Amen brother!

  10. #7720
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  11. #7721
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    Paul writes: “Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38–39). What powers or forces do you fear? Remember they cannot stand against God!

  12. #7722
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    Happy new year's everyone!

    Today's devotion:

    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/31/

  13. #7723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimitar View Post
    For the unbeliever, this story does make God seem arbitrary and cruel. But look at it from Abraham's perspective. We've already talked about God's attributes and in this story, his holiness and righteousness come into play. Instead of saying "if God is asking me to kill my son, he must not be righteous and holy", Abraham instead said "God is righteous and holy and he keeps his promises and he promised me a son, so in faith, I will do what the Lord commands." The Hebrew writer even confirms this when he wrote

    "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death." (Hebrews 11:17-19)

    There is an additional aspect to this story which is prophetic in nature. And I believe that while Abraham didn't understand the full picture, he understood that God was playing something out through him. This becomes evident when after a three day journey (a prophetic pattern in itself) Isaac asks Abraham "Father, the fire and wood are here but there is no lamb for the sacrifice." (Genesis 22:7) To which Abraham replies "God will provide the lamb for the sacrifice." (Genesis 22:8) What makes this even more prophetic, is that this occurred on Mt. Moriah, the future location of the city of Jerusalem. Typically, when a sacrifice was made, it was done on the highest point of the mountain, which, in the case of Mt. Moriah, was a place called Golgotha. So the place where Abraham offered his son for a sacrifice was on the exact spot that God himself provided his only Son as the lamb for another sacrifice, a sacrifice that He actually went through with.

    One of the hardest things for the unbelieving heart to acknowledge is the Creator/creature distinction. In our pride and rebellion we think we get to decide how we think God should behave. And when God doesn't conform to our presupposed sensibilites, we decide he's either cruel or doesn't exist. If you look at the story of Job, when God finally does answer him about why he's suffering in Job 38, we don't see a God who's explaining a whole lot.

    Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

    “Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
    Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
    Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
    On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels shouted for joy?

    And God goes on like that for another 3 chapters. And while is seems uncaring and cruel, it is God reminding Job that HE is the Creator and Job is the creature. And eventually Job gets it.

    Then Job replied to the Lord:

    “I know that you can do all things;
    no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
    Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me to know.

    “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.’
    My ears had heard of you
    but now my eyes have seen you.
    Therefore I despise myself
    and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:1-6)

    No one ever said believing is easy. It takes a lot to acknowledge an all-powerful Creator. It takes a lot more to ask how you are accountable to that Creator. Most don't have the faith to do it. Otherwise the Church would be growing, not shrinking. But ultimately it's up to every person whether they answer God's call or not.
    Truth!

    Everyone judges God for events like this, or the flood or Job. Or when bad things happen, period. But turning that same critical eye inward? Nope. Toward the way we treat God on a regular basis? Nope.

    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
    The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
    They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.
    There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
    Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge. (Psalm 14:1-6)

    "I had motive for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves. . . . For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political." - Aldous Huxley

    People don't want authority in their lives.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #7724
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Abraham. The man God told to kill his son to prove his loyalty? Isn't that something despots like Kim Jong Il do? I always found that story very cruel.
    During the time of Abraham many other "gods" required human sacrifices some being the first born of the tribal leader so the story "for its time" starts out no different than other peoples' story from that era. The difference is the ending, where there was not human sacrifice. In Judaism human sacrifices are an abomination before God and that stretches to this time of Abraham and sat Hashem (God) apart from the other deities worshiped at the time.
    Of course the story is about loyalty and sacrifice to God. Abraham saw that Isaac was only his by the grace of God as Sarah had him way after her prime so he was also Gods to take. And the Bible clearly states that God is testing Abraham. But the "kill your son because I say so.... just kidding don't do it" is not the whole story. Abraham and God were talking way before this and God said he had plans for Isaac... big plans. Soooo I don't think that Abraham thought God was a liar or he totally would have gone with the guess I'll kill my son for no reason just because you tell me to o'lord. No, he agreed because he knew that God had a plan for Isaac and this must be part of the plan and he was have faith in that plan.

    The story between Abraham and Isaac is really not that cut and dry as "kill him for loyalty". Its is a test of loyalty and a line that God will keep is word as he did with Isaac becoming what God said he was going to become. The story is not about human sacrifice, but about faith in God’s ultimate wisdom – even when someone do not understand it at all and cannot see any sense in what is happening. It also set a president through the Israelite, Hebrew, and in turn Judaism that unlike all the other gods "despots like Kim Jong Il" the God of Abraham does not require human sacrifice. Though this makes the story of Jephthah and his daughter in Judges contrary to Mosaic law very strange.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  15. #7725
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    Hey everyone, I was wondering if you could pray for my wife and I. We are starting a new business adventure and we really need this to work. It's exciting but also a little scary. We've never branched out on our own before, so this is something new. Thank you for your prayers.

    Today's devotion:

    OUR HUNGER AND GOD’S SUPPLY
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue.../devotions/02/

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