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  1. #8056
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    Jesus was sort of like an ancient version of Karl Marx, an obscure figure in his homeland who ideas quickly spread far and wide and were, shall we say, creatively interpreted by the people who adopted them. And indeed, early Christianity did carry a pretty radical message of resisting the establishment and empowering the downtrodden, and that message of justice and equality were certainly key factors in its popularity among the lowly and disenfranchised in society at that time. But after Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire, it lost most of that populist, revolutionary bent and the church took on many of the trappings of the old pagan temples it replaced, spending most of its time issuing decrees to keep the believers in line and obedient to authority.

  2. #8057
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    That's a cool analogy.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  3. #8058
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Exactly. Men who were atheists have set out to prove the bible was false only to end up believing and becoming Christians.
    You do know about Lost Q Source, the Pre-Markan Passion Narrative, and the Signs Gospel right? It is basically that scholars have deduced that the 4 gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were most likely writhen from these earlier sources. So it's not really true that people who go in looking into the authorship of the New Testament come back born again.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    They did not destroy them, they were omitted because they did not meet certain criteria.
    So the church never in its history destroyed what it considered heretical ideas, you know, the ones that didn't meet their certain criteria?
    Last edited by Moon Ronin; 06-27-2019 at 08:15 AM.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  4. #8059
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    You do know about Lost Q Source, the Pre-Markan Passion Narrative, and the Signs Gospel right? It is basically that scholars have deduced that the 4 gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were most likely writhen from these earlier sources. So it's not really true that people who go in looking into the authorship of the New Testament come back born again.



    So the church never in its history destroyed what it considered heretical ideas, you know, the ones that didn't meet their certain criteria?
    To my knowledge, I have never heard of the church destroying books of the bible. Some were omitted and others (that Gnostics tried to get included) were never allowed into the bible as we know it.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  5. #8060
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Today's devotion:

    MOSES CHOSE THE RIGHT TREASURE
    https://www.todayintheword.org/issue...tions/june-27/
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  6. #8061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    You do know about Lost Q Source, the Pre-Markan Passion Narrative, and the Signs Gospel right? It is basically that scholars have deduced that the 4 gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were most likely writhen from these earlier sources.
    You're throwing around a lot of "likely" words. I'm going by facts. We know for certain that the gospels were authored by those Apostles and Luke. Some as early as 15-20 years after Christ's death and resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    So it's not really true that people who go in looking into the authorship of the New Testament come back born again.
    This is just not true. Here is a list of just some of the notable people who were against Christianity or religion in general only to become Christians later on after learning and researching it years later:

    Lee strobel (a former atheist journalist who set out to prove that Christianity was false, but became a Christiam after realizing that it was all true due to his extensive reasearch)
    C.S.Lewis & his wife
    Leah Libresco
    C.E.M. Joad
    Nicky Gumbel
    Peter Hitchens
    Mortimer Adler
    Seraphim Rose

    There are many others, but that is just some notables.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  7. #8062
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    To my knowledge, I have never heard of the church destroying books of the bible. Some were omitted and others (that Gnostics tried to get included) were never allowed into the bible as we know it.
    The Apostate Church of Christendom during the middle ages (about 1,000 years of it) even burned the bible it's self. The Church believed that the "uneducated" man who read the bible would not understand it the way it was "meant" to be understood and questions the church's teaching. So the bible was banned to the common man and if found was burned and some times the owner along side it. There were other heretical works on the list that included the gnostic books that didn't fit the criteria of the church's ideas and yes they burned them too.
    Surely not everybody was kung fu fighting

  8. #8063
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    I can say that many more believers looked closely at the Bible and came out atheists. It doesn't really prove anything either way.

    We actually know fairly certainly that the Gospels were not written by the Apostles, that is not what the historians says. Moon is correct.

    You belief that they were is unfounded by any serious scholarship.
    Last edited by Kirby101; 06-27-2019 at 09:05 AM.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  9. #8064
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    The Apostate Church of Christendom during the middle ages (about 1,000 years of it) even burned the bible it's self. The Church believed that the "uneducated" man who read the bible would not understand it the way it was "meant" to be understood and questions the church's teaching. So the bible was banned to the common man and if found was burned and some times the owner along side it. There were other heretical works on the list that included the gnostic books that didn't fit the criteria of the church's ideas and yes they burned them too.
    When you said "destroyed", I thought you meant that these books were no longer in publication. As in they were "wiped out of history". You['re talking about burning books that have still survived and can be read. That's a huge difference.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  10. #8065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I can say that many more believers looked closely at the Bible and came out atheists. It doesn't really prove anything either way.

    We actually know fairly certainly that the Gospels were not written by the Apostles, that is not what the historians says. Moon is correct.

    You belief that they were is unfounded by any serious scholarship.
    "Fairly certain" is not a fact. By all accounts, we know that they were indeed written by the authors.
    "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of God stands forever"--Isaiah 40:8

    “A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a little boy’s shoulder to let him know that the world hadn't ended.”--Batman

    “You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don’t alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views.”--The Doctor

  11. #8066
    Postin' since Aug '05 Dalak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    "Fairly certain" is not a fact. By all accounts, we know that they were indeed written by the authors.
    A nitpick: If all accounts agreed on anything regarding the Bible (Other than it existing), there probably wouldn't be multiple religions along with unbelievers in the world.

  12. #8067
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    "Fairly certain" is not a fact. By all accounts, we know that they were indeed written by the authors.
    No we know nothing of the sort. We don't even know the names attributed to the Gospels were those of the actual authors. You are wrong about this, the Apostles did not write the Gospels.

    If you read academic scholarship about the Bible, you would know that.

    You need the Bible to be written by the Apostles for your faith to be true. I prefer to deal with evidence and facts.

    It's like someone asking what we think Noah's Flood was. It wasn't anything, because it never happened. (except an older Babylonian tale about local flooding)

    You asked who non-believers think Jesus was. We have told you, but you don't seem to grasp that we don't consider the Bible as a true account of anything. That it is a religious text no more reliable than any other.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  13. #8068
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    How do you explain what He did, all the prophecies he fulfilled (1 person fulfilling 8 prophecies: 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. Jesus fulfilling all of them is astronomical).
    I have no reason to believe that these things were prophesied or that he fulfilled them.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Also, there's only three things Jesus could be, a liar, a lunatic or the Lord. C.S. Lewis wrote:
    I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God.

    That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell.

    You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. . . . Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God. (Mere Christianity, 55-56)
    He might have been a liar or a lunatic. Or he might have been massively misquoted since his death. Any of those three options is much more likely than him being son of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    And once last thing, how do you explain all the miracles he did and the thousands of people who were eye witnesses of these miracles?
    The same way I explain the Fantastic Four defeating Galactus in front of thousands of eye witnesses.

  14. #8069
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Whovian View Post
    Exactly. Men who were atheists have set out to prove the bible was false only to end up believing and becoming Christians.
    My Religious Education teacher at high school was a Christian, but he wound up studying the Bible so much that he turned Atheist. It goes both ways.

  15. #8070
    Extraordinary Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Whovian, I would not hold up Lee Strobel as icon of rational Christendom if I were you. He is a Creationist hack who most likely was never an atheist as he claims.

    And I would take Bertrand Russell over C S Lewis any day.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

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